The crime of involving religion in the public forum has been slow and insidious. In the early 1860s the U.S. Congress authorized the illegal placement of "In God We Trust" on our coinage, first appearing on the 1862 two cent piece, as a propaganda ploy against the pro-slavery rebellion. It should have been smacked down by the courts then, but as we were busy with other concerns (like the war) it slid through. That it was already on the books made it easy for the "Red Baiters" to do it again in 1954 when as a propaganda ploy against Communism, they did the same for our currency, first showing up on the 1957 series currency. That we were in the midst of the paranoia fest of the Cold War and just coming out of the hysteria of the Joe McCarthy years, let it slide by again.

Bush (puppeted by Cheney) used the cover of 911 and the foolishness of his war in Iraq ( an action that would have been akin to FDR's invasion of Mexico to retaliate for the attack on Pearl Harbor), to play to the Taliban type Christians who make up so much of his base, added the largest insult to the concept of "Separation of Church and State" With his "faith based initiatives".

I have my suspicions why Obama has allowed it to continue and even increase, but I suspect it is being done to keep the Taliban type fanatic Christians from rising up and pulling a total armed takeover of the country to establish what they have wanted all along, a theocratic dictatorship (with all the baggage that usually accompanies such creations. see: "Calvin's Geneva Experiment" , but not right before or right after you eat). The next last thing he needs is to get these delusional Neanderthals throwing their full weight behind the idiots trying to shout down health care debate and the industries using them for that purpose.

If we are to follow the spirit of the concept of "separation of Church and State", we have to make sure that not one cent of public funds is used to further education in ANY fashion, including busing children to be indoctrinated in religious schools and certainly not for vouchers for education.

Its very simple. Our country has been blessed because of our faith in and following of God. We started going downhill with the Supreme Court decision against prayer in public schools. The farther we have gotten from God, the more downhill we have become because He doesnt bless us. This president was allowed by God to be in office because we are being punished. If God didnt want him there, he wouldnt be there. Why should the Faith Based Initiative be mentioned by the press as much now if it isnt in vogue? Also, from what I understand, our constitution doesnt actually say that church and state have to be seperated. Thanks.

Wow Clay--you the Gulliver of faith versus Robert Littel-- the Green Giant against all things Neanderthal! Come on Littel, you wouldn't call sweet, polite, faith tweeting Clay a Taliban style Christian would you?

Littel, for a man who parades as one without delusions I am surprised you are unable to see, that Obama may be a Neanderthal himself-- a man of faith. Don't forget he sat Sunday after Sunday in Reverend Wright's church swallowing the fireworks of that "Lochinvar of Black Faith"; and what about Obama's genuflections to Rick Warren, the emperor of purpose and the rider aloft the Saddleback of religious interference in the state?

And Obama letting gays stay adrift in a sea of political controversies, while blowing wind into the sails of their enemies; swearing he is for all things pro-gay except that holy matrimony will always be between a man and a woman; you think that too is neutralization of a Taliban style Christian backlash on the part of Obama the spectacular progressive?

Obama as a savior of the ship of state, a man who must follow a dangerous course between the Scylla of the Republican Party and the Charybdis of screaming ignoramuses holds no water Littel.

Obama is a faith based product, married in the church, his children duly baptized, a man who sought his identity in the Black church and reconciled his inner turmoils about his phenotype versus his genotype by lending his rapt ears to Reverend Wright's histrionics.

It might hurt your romantic soul Littel, but Obama the demagogue is the same as Bush when it comes to wanting votes--in his case those that proclaim, "Yes, Obama!" and the inner voice that guides every captain at the political rudder, mate, is the one that advises a safe course between the Scylla of "principles" and the "Charybdis" of honesty into a harbor where the deluded will gather to reward you with a confetti of votes for a canny voyage.

And Obama, a political creature par excellence, knows which side his bread is buttered. He loves the circus, the rice and confetti, the entranced listeners who will vote for him no matter what he says and the deep thinkers like yourself who can spout the history of this nation backward blindfolded, like Hirschfeld of the New Yorker, who will see in him the virtues of a liberal lion even though he is letting you down every turn he takes and every twist he makes; you will say it is because he has to save the ship of state from the screaming lumpen proletariat.

And Clay, our founding fathers were suspicious of religion, if they were men of faith they didn't wear this fact on their sleeves and they didn't want government meddling in faith or lack thereof; for them this was a matter of private choice and private practice, like it was for Jesus, who scolded the hypocritical Pharisees for their loud and showy prayers and set up the Saducees, as examples to the rest, for their humble and self effacing worship. The church should butt out of the state. It has no business playing unbecoming politics when it has so much more important business to accomplish, like keeping its straying shepherds in line; those who subscribe to prostitution and commit outright rape on the congregants, those who abscond with donations, those who eat, drink and make merry in the name of Jesus, the church has plenty of fat cats to manage; and it has no permission in the constitution to keep putting its proboscis in matters of war or vote, most importantly it has no permission from Jesus to do this; its mission is to save souls, not to manipulate government; and Clay you are way off base in your half baked musings, even by the standards of your own Bible. This President is in office because a majority voted for him. If Barack Obama is punishment Clay, then what are you, a reward from God to the nation?

You cant win souls by not allowing prayer in schools nor by discouraging kids to go to Christian ones, nor by encouraging homosexuals to marry if the bible says that homosexuality is wrong, nor by taking "In God We Trust" off our coinage. The founding fathers suspicious of religion? "It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and to humbly implore his protection and favor."- George Washington. "I have tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ."-Alexander Hamilton. "Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson. And dont forget "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unaleinable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." - Declaration of Independence. And will you please show me where in the constitution it says that church and state must be separate? I am not a reward from God to the nation. I am someone who repeats His words, along with the words of our founding fathers. Thanks.

God is the end result of a failed search for truth by a very shallow mind, provided any search for truth was made at all instead of just swallowing the accumulated myths and superstions handed down from your ancestors that were spoon-fed to you as a child. Of course these ancestors thought the world was flat and disease was caused by demons, so their judgement can't be questioned., can it?

It has taken 500 years to get religion out of governments as we have moved toward the secular state. A mistake was made in 1948 by allowing one to be established, and now there are any number of religious states springing up and some of the have, or are about to have nuclear weapons. Be afraid, be very afraid.

"God is the end result of a failed search for truth by a very shallow mind, provided any search for truth was made at all instead of just swallowing the accumulated myths and superstions handed down from your ancestors that were spoon-fed to you as a child. Of course these ancestors thought the world was flat and disease was caused by demons, so their judgement can't be questioned., can it?"

Funny I don't recall anyone ever saying that. In fact many the reason we have so many differnt religions is proof of it. You seem to miss the point of the articel which is to show yet again that the media tends to treat liberals differnt in their reporting than conservatives. I'm actually surprised anyone at the Sun would even point that fact out.

I would be very afraid if godless states got nuclear weapons too Littel. The former Soviet Union was godless and it wasn't exactly your pussy cat next door was it? Godless or godly; humans are the same, they are inclined to destroy themselves.

Ravensfan why should you be surprised that Matthew Hay Brown of the Sun has blogged about this research? In fact the print edition of the Sun carried an article about this research today. You think articles that examine the press are that common? That when Bush started this faith based mush the media was all over him with a spying glass in hand and binoculars for distance examination-- that they looked here and there trying to ferret out the sinister aspects of this program, whether it would blackball abortion and if it would coerce people to convert to Christianity or proselytize while being a purveyor of charities--that this program is hardly linked to Obama and it is accepted now as just another extension of Obama Care, a kindness bestowed on the faithful and not so faithful by the father of the nation--you don't think the liberal press is so crass that once in a while it is not susceptible to pious self examination and recriminations leading to blogs and articles on this kind of research?

Miracles do occur from time to time Ravensfan and remember the liberals place themselves on a higher intellectual plane than the conservatives and occasional spasms of guilt while plumbing the depths of their own follies is part of the intellectual exercise.

While you smell a liberal menace in every hole that the press digs Ravensfan, Littel smells a cataclysm wherever the liberals are not in charge. In between the two of you there lies a gem called Clay. He believes in God with a fervor that Littel or I cannot taunt out of him.

Ravensfan, even though you think what Littel has said has no relevance to Brown's blog, it does. For once the man is partially right--usually he's completely wrong. These faith based initiatives, he contends, are dangerous because they make a molotov cocktail of state and religion for sale to the flat earthers, the birthers and those who believe in a geocentric universe. Except that Obama supports them and I wonder where this places Obama in Littel's heliocentric universe.

And by the way Clay you sound like Pat Robertson-- just when I was beginning to think you are a different kind of faith based initiative than the routine kind you reduce the world to a system of rewards and punishments. I thought Littel will fight you on the constitution, quote you chapter and verse from the founding fathers' treatises to prove you are wrong about the separation of church and state. Instead he seems heavily hung up on showing you, you are a prehistoric phenom because of your pitiful ancestors.

Hence I will take on the arduous job of explaining to you that the founding fathers may have spouted here and there about personal faith but they did not want the cup of state running over with the molotov cocktail of faith. To truly appreciate how much they were suspicious of religion Clay you should read James Madison--our greatest founding father. He is too liberal for Ravensfan and I tremble to think of what Littel thinks of him but he is enough argument against your brand of Bible versus secularism.

Religion flourishes with a greater purity without than with the aid of government--so said Madison and Jefferson wrote about the separation of church and state in a letter to the Danbury Baptists. Notice that even in your quotes except for George Washington everyone else uses the personal pronoun "I" when referring to God. In fact these god believing men also believed that not mixing church and state would be better for the church and for religion.

They wanted religion to flourish, incorruptible and independent of the state, whereas you Clay have argued the reverse, that the state should invite religion into its chambers so it will be pure by virtue of religious influence.

This is why pal, Littel riles against the conservatives. I don't blame the man. Even Dobson gave up Clay. He realized that the church was being corrupted by its meddling in the affairs of the state, that the church was straying from its mission and getting mixed up in politics--it was losing sight of Jesus in search of votes for its favorite politicians who, of course, were milking the church to get congregants to the polling booths on incendiary and divisive social and cultural issues.

Littel wants to get you out of your faith mode-little does he know your obduracy. But thinking the way you do--although I doubt anyone can even come close--thinking somewhat like you do, Clay--I am pointing out to you that the state is not good for religion. What say you? You condemn the King of Saddleback, Warren, as a politician and then you want the church mixed up with the state. What sense is there in that?

And yes, Ravensfan, the fact there are many religions does prove Littel's shallow search for truth, spoon fed and so on and so forth diatribe.

Robert Littel,
Check out the Scientology Update blog--you ain't seen nothing yet until you've seen that. I don't expect even you make a dent in that group.

Considering how much this god creature showed his love for his children by answering the hundreds of millions of prayers to stop Hitler before and while he was killing 50 million people during WWII, I think he/it is more of an SOB if he/it is real. I mean really, he turned a righteous woman into a pillar of salt for looking over her shoulder, you would think a simple blood clot put in the right spot in Hitler's body would have been a snap.

If you dont love God, why talk about Him? I am willing to read what anyone has to say about quoting the constitution where it supposedly says that church and state have to be separate. If God says in the bible that He is supposed to be the most important goal in your life, why in the world would He want government to ignore Him? Have a good one.

Ah Littel,
You are wrong that a good woman was turned to a pillar of salt. As Clay would put it, when God sayeth something and a woman disobeyeth what God has said, then the woman cannot possibly be good--here the good woman, called so by you, turned and gave Gomorrah and Sodom, the lands of bawdy ballads and hedonism, one last longing look--nothing wrong with that by your standard--but by the standards of the Lord she was an utter failure and when women and men so fail, pillars of salt appear in their stead.

Despite the fact you might think this is ridiculous Littel, I want to remind you gently, that sodium chloride is a big part of our composition and it could be argued that God dehydrated and desiccated the woman and all that was left of her--we are 60% water after all--after she evaporated--and she would evaporate because Sodom and Gomorrah were burning--was a pillar of salt.

This loony scientific explanation of course would not suit your rigid adherence to logic and truth Littel but to some, less rigid than you, yet seeking scientific explanations for things, this could be thrown as a crumb or even a challenge for what the Bible actually meant to say about the "good woman" turning to a pillar of salt. I don't expect Clay to resort to this explanation of course. He is no revisionist about the Bible. He is a purist.

But coming to Hitler, why, you ask, wasn't Hitler struck down by a clot before he killed six million Jews? The fact you ask this question Littel, is evidence you are a prodigal son, who has strayed too far from the flock-- that you have forgotten the original sin and the presence of the devil working always against God.

Then you would ask why God does not bust the devil with a clot. One explanation, that would make Clay bristle, would be that the devil and God have a pact, that the devil will only get busted, after God has had His fill of vicarious thrills. Another explanation is that God spun off something He can no longer control--somewhat like the public health plan, you support, would be to the government of the USA 20 years hence. You of course will insist there is no God, but even you have to admit there IS a government of the USA and I will say if we don't watch out, Littel, it may be our next God.

Thanks Anon. If God told them not to turn around, He meant it. By the way, where Sodom and Gomorrah were is now the dead sea. I was in the Inner Harbor and some ladies were selling salt for healing from the dead sea. They put it on my hands and they looked a lot smoother (it also contains other ingredients), and that is no lie. Nothing grows there but people go there for healing baths. As far as satan goes, God lets people choose good or evil. Otherwise we would be robots. He will come back to judge the world, and those who have chosen evil will be sent to hell. And that includes satan. Thanks.

It is not my fault that you believe such rubbish. The fact that you believe in a god creature that could turn a woman into a pillar of salt, murder two entire cities, flood the earth killing every living thing except all but two of each of all the animals of the land, on the boat this Noah fable built, just shows how totally gullible people who subscribe to superstitious delusions can be when they call it truth. We should have evolved to the point where people who spout such rubbish are confined to rubber rooms for their own safety.

Come on Little--Clay in a rubber room? You want to put all the Scientologists in there with him while you are at it? And why a rubber room? Why not a concrete bunker underground? And how unsafe is Clay when he ventures into the Inner Harbor against all good sense, among the gang members with their high fives and their cheek by jowl provocations; how unsafe when he trusts Jesus to protect him; when he is feted by old women, with salt from the Dead Sea, which perhaps he sprinkles on his mercury saturated salmon at night, perhaps even on his red meat---imagine, Lot's very own wife-- his seasoning--all the way in Baltimore, and you Littel instead of being duly intrigued, accuse him of delusions? It is of fables we are made Littel--the Greeks, the Romans, the Babylonians, the Persians and the Egyptians and you scoff that the raconteurs of this world should be confined to rubber rooms? Even Shakespeare Littel? I think Littel we are rapidly evolving to the point where you and I will be confined to rubber rooms before Clay is ever put there. When that day comes Littel I might bring myself a Bible to read just to get a rise out of seeing you froth that you would be confined with a sub human.

Hi Bob. Dont worry. Taking a bath with Barbara Mikulski cant be that bad. I wont do it though. Thanks.

Anonymous - I wish I had the time to play with you, but my time is limited (sometimes it is not a good thing being the boss), especially when you are trying to keep all your employees on the books and insured so that they remain healthy and productive. I know that that is an un-American principle and that in not covering my own bottom line at their expense, I am breaking several of the rules that characterize your conservative free-market mentality, but we all have to work together to come out of this mess whole.

As to your objection to my perception of the institutions using superstition, delusion and fear of the unknown to control the population, so that they can be manipulated to accept their lot in our wealth driven autocracy, well, It doesn't count for much. I am entertained by your coming back to denigrate me after each post, because that is what they are paying you to do to anyone who rocks the corporate boat. You have earned your pay-check this week, even if you have failed in your goal, but they do appreciate your effort, and I will (time permitting) do whatever I can to give you more opportunities to prove your worth to them, even as you fail.

Hi Bob. You are invited to our men's bible study if you want to come. Remember, Paul was overseeing the persecution and killing of Christians before Christ spoke to him. He ended up writing most of the new testament. You have a responsibility over those employees to witness to them, and not for the guy below. It is the most important thing you can do as a boss. And remember, God isnt impressed with fancy words. He would rather have the retarded guy with a heart for Him. Thanks.

Clay - You need help. Not just counseling, but holes drilled in your skull and electrodes inserted, kind of help. Why do you think that I could ever be as mentally deficient as you seem to be. If ignorance is bliss, you must be having a never ending explosive orgasm.

We must attempt to get rid of anger and open our hearts if we expect to get to heaven. Then we overcome non-believing. Thanks.

Robert, Clay is your undoing. Clay, Robert suffers from unrighteous indignation and plenty of it. The governor of Florida is at the receiving end on another post. But Robert is simply marvelous as are you Clay--you both are well matched--now I can bow out, but I won't. Robert's is the contretemps of one indisposed with hatred for religion, ignorance and the willing servility of the masses toward their rich masters. Your's Clay is the indisposition of a man who has no contretemps, no ax to grind, except for Jesus.

Ah Robert, here I am on the corporate boat, you blowing hard like Poseidon on it, the boat shaking to its very core, my corporate gangster masters have just paid me my dues and I am under orders to take the wind out of your puffed cheeks or else they have promised to return and kill me. You of course would support their quest but I plan to stay alive for a while longer on this corporate dinghy and will be making every attempt to defang you while I am at it.

And Clay, you will be disconcerted to hear that I will be sending a prayer to ZEUS, lord of Mount Olympos, to deflate Robert's puffed cheeks. By the way, Clay, paganism is back in Greece. There has been a concerted movement to pit the ancient Greek religion against the Greek Christian orthodoxy and knowing that this sort of venture will not have your approval because you will claim that the Lord Jesus watcheth and disapproveth I want to tell you that Lord Zeus cares not one whit that you do not include him in your pantheon of Gods.

After He hears my prayer, Lord Zeus, will be off somewhere chasing a pretty nymph into a cove or a glen looking for that never ending explosive orgasm Robert speaks of.

And by the way Robert, once the electrodes have been inserted in Clay's brain they will begin to quiver with the ecstasy of Clay's gray matter exuding the "witnessing" and the drilled holes will begin to heal as if by magic--same as the hurricanes not coming to Florida--the power of prayer being the saving grace of all of mankind--and his never ending explosive orgasm will not be the carnal kind you are familiar with, it will be attained on a plane unfamiliar to your suspicious and skeptical nature; a spiritual climaxing of the sort described in the Kamasutra--there Clay, I think that is a masterful defense of your beliefs, if I may say so myself.

And by the way Clay what say you about the Episcopalians and the Methodists agreeing to ordain gay ministers? As a strict adherent to the word of the Lord you must be in a dither about this turn of events. Even as Robert wants you skewered with electrodes, winds of change are breaking over the Christian waters and Littel, it may please your ever so rational mind that the Christians are shedding their biases one by one and any time now they may relinquish the Bible, as Clay interprets it, to the dust heap of history.

Hopefully that will draw a smile on your cantankerous soul Robert but knowing your idiosyncratic obsession with the corporate world, somehow I already sense you will insinuate my "sinister" motives toward people as lofty as you, into the motif of your repartee. As Clay would say while concluding one of his passive aggressions--thank you all.

It is always simple with God. If the bible says dont do it, then dont. Whatever disobedience any church or anyone has is not approved by God, regardless of who approves of it in the church. It is also simple that punishment is given out by God. Maybe that is why the hurricane is headed towards Obama's vacation home. He came out with a statement in support of Ramadan. Will he say anything at Easter? Have a good one.

Ah Clay,
May be the good lord loves Obama and may be that is why He downgraded a category 3 storm to a category one whimper and let it churn out at sea toward Nova Scotia far from Martha's Vineyard. May be God knew that Obama is up to any challenge and his family will make sport of a hurricane, gather around a living room table, tell stories and laugh the storm away.
May be Jehovah, Allah and Zeus are in consultation about you Clay, wondering if Robert should be allowed to alter your mind about the existence of God, divine punishment and other such important matters by placing electrodes in your "I know what God thinks because my Bible study class has a telephone line to God's head," certitude.

One thing I do know for sure. God does punish people. Thanks.

Clay, you make my day! God does punish people you say; but why does God need to if He is coming back to claim his own, my man? All He needs to do is lie back and wait, until judgment day. Are you suggesting God is impatient or doubly vengeful, inflicting punishments here, there and everywhere?

God, if there is one, I hope, is way cool for that sort of nonsense. Man punishes himself. In every seed he sows there is the germ of his reward or punishment. God has cut out.

The Hindus say, Brahma the creator, too tired after all that creating, sleeps for 4 billion years until the universe contracts, explodes and bangs big once more.

The pagan Greeks put it this way- Gods play with men because they-- Gods- are bored with eternal life and need diversions.

The Buddhists postulate men's follies are mere stepping stones to nirvana, neither punishable nor indelible, just lessons learned on the way to God.

But your insistence that God selectively punishes those who reject the Son of God--or--Son of Man--or whatever--is the least credible of them all.

Even according to the Bible, so called punishments test the strength and will of men--Job is an example--they are the challenges that make life interesting, not the blows meted out to crush men.

Your divination of divine punishment is destined for the landfill of extinct beliefs. Your Bible study group needs a revolution. Robert Littel comes to mind but don't give him a lectern if he chooses to come. Give him a table to stand on, make it narrow of width and breadth and mighty tall in height and when he falls off in the middle of a diatribe, tell him, "God does punish people. Thanks!" And he will get right up and accuse you of working for the autocracy in America--or the plutocracy--or the oligopoly....all roads lead to the robber barons for Robert Littel.

The bible says that we will be punished with eternal fire if we dont get to heaven, and I believe it. It also says that fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Thanks.

Clay - My eighty-one year old mother has been following this exchange and she has come to the conclusion that had I ended up with your mind, the kindest thing she would be able to say when introducing me to anyone (when it couldn't be avoided altogether), would be to say, "this is my presumed son, a real horse's patoot.". Have you EVER had an original thought in your life, not to mention ever having gotten lucky?

Hi. I am not surprised that you are like her. Most kids turn out to be like their parents. She isnt saved, why should you be? Kids brought up in Christian homes are more likely to attend church, etc. If she approves of what you put out here, she cant be saved. If I had a son he would probably be a lot less likely than you to leave postings like you leave here. The pastor I listen to on the radio has a son who received Christ when he was a child. What would that boy have chosen if his father continued to live the un Christian lifestyle that he lived before he was saved? People are hungry for the word, hungry for something to believe in and trust, and that certainly includes God. My mom turned 80 in June and she has been attending church all of her life. She wouldnt want me to leave postings like you do here. I think you and your mom are as hungry for the word as anyone else here, and these thoughts are all mine. Thanks.

Your god is like all other gods , false. That you can be invested so intently in something so ridiculous as to border on manically fanatic, based on not one tiny shred of evidence that a god (any god) exists, or has ever existed, shows a depth of emptiness of mind so devoid of reason, it is a wonder your brain can even carry on the automatic functions that keep you breathing, or from constantly soiling yourself. People like you are the reason I am here, because stupidity at your level has to be mitigated before it turns us all into psychotic delusional automatons.

Hi Littel,
There is no evidence that no God or any God does NOT exist. Your reason borders on the maniacally fanatic, that it is a wonder you keep breathing without clogging one of your carotids, which if you do, you WILL be in a coma, paralyzed on one side of your body; the automatic function of your breathing erratic; and you will soil yourself continuously then, so a doc attending to you would have to order depend diapers to contain your horses patoot right close to your bottom--allow not these horrible things to happen to you Littel; we love your dramatization of this mystifying thing called Faith--keep it coming--Clay can take it--the man is a veritable pillar of salt --prayer hardens his heart for the blows you give him--but let not the epinephrine gush too fast into your carotids--keep your arteries clean Littel--we do want you to outlive your mother--to attain the full benefit of her genes bestowed on you--are you sure Littel you are still at the PRE-psychotic-delusional-automaton-
state of living and being--that you are not teetering on the brink a little? And Clay whatever else I may accuse you of, I think you are entirely original and man, you are POLITE--eerily polite--that's right Clay--eerily polite--in you Robert has run up against malicious politeness--and that is the aspect of you Clay, I find refreshingly original. And by the way I think Matthew Hay Brown's original blog should have been titled,"Obama continues all sorts of shenanigans under media radar."

There is nothing original about being polite. Christ was more than polite when he touched blind people and healed them. Being polite is expected of Christians, although, since "the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword," that word certainly can be used to defend God and the bible. Someone trying to defend against it can never win that battle, and that is obvious here with Mr. Littel. If he hasnt been brought up to respect an argument without resorting to name calling and fancy words, he wont do it here, and he doesnt appear to know how to respond to politeness with politeness. Remember, God isnt impressed with fancy words. He cares much more about what is in our hearts. Unless Bob opens up that heart, he wont change. Thanks for your comments.

Bravo Clay and Amen. I shall continue to argue with you in my own style. Littel is only trying to save you from religion for humanism, enlightenment, science, and rational thought Clay and you go all biblical on him and frustrate his attempts to convert you. Hence he browbeats you. Much to my consternation I am afraid he's going to give up, to go resolve weightier issues like health care for his workers--he is a pompous man but he weaves some good sparks across these threads--you must admit Clay, in a world without passion his venom feels like a warm bath in a geyser. I think what's in the man's heart ain't half as bad as what's on his lips. And you say God doesn't care about big words Clay? Come on, you're kidding. If God created man; and man created big and small words both; I would assume God would have no preference--I'd like to imagine this fictitious God uses BIG words when He converses with Satan to send Satan scurrying to a dictionary in the sky? You are too stuck up for your own good Clay. What you need is a bit of loosening up--some monstrous words for a swordplay with Robert.

If someone uses big words from the bible then thats ok. Fancy words from someone else, especially if trying to impress someone, mean nothing to God if that person doesnt have a heart for Him. Why should they? And if Mr Littel has something bad coming out of his lips, it is because there is something bad in his heart. Your words are a reflection of what is in your heart. I am just repeating for the most part what is in the bible and that cant be snobby. Thanks.

Ah Clay, Subtlety is not one of your strengths--the simple fact is this:venom on the lips does not necessarily mean venom in the heart and sweet as honey on the lips does not mean the quality of mercy overflows in the heart. Big words from the Bible are allowed but from the dictionary are not? Wow! This logic beats all! Did Saul--Paul say that? Before or after the blinders fell off his eyes? Something tells me after.

Big words from God are always more important than our big words, especially if we are using words to impress someone and need to be more humble. The heart is more important. I agree that honey on the lips doesnt necessarily mean the same for the heart. Someone could have evil intent. But evil words coming out of one's mouth, cursing and such, could still mean honey in the heart? Cant go for that one. Thanks.