The problem with too much entertainment in churches is that it encourages the congregation to get too far away from the word of God. Mr Warren's church had Hillary Clinton speak there, someone who is pro abortion. Granted, Mrs. Clinton may have been a better Christian choice for president than Mr. Obama, but thats not saying a whole lot. Why does it have to be someone popular for it to be successful? Should churches put up Warhol prints of Marilyn Monroe to draw more people in? If you draw more people in you had better give them the word that God wants them to hear, and one of the first things that includes is being humble and fearing God. Was God being humorous when He had a donkey speak to someone? Not at all. He was ridiculing them because He was angry. There is nothing wrong with a pastor telling a joke, etc. When we let it get too far from God's word then we are being show offy. "Look at me. Look how funny I am and what I can do." My former church scheduled a bunch of muscle guys to come in and bust up concrete blocks and boards in a show for Jesus. The show wasnt held because no one would donate 1400 dollars worth of construction materials, money which would obviously be better spent helping the needy or buying witnessing tracts to spread God's word. This type of show is too far away from what God wants. Having a successful church means putting the emphasis on God rather than self, and of course also being friendly and family oriented. These are the most successful churches, because they are doing what God wants.

Clay, you finally wrote something sensible. I'll hold my breath and wait for the miracle to repeat itself!

Hello. Tell me what I said that you think wasnt sensible, whether it concerns the Muslims or the Catholic church or whatever, and I will tell you what the bible has to say about it, even using bible quotations. Have a good one.

Gosh Clay, I didn't have the strength to challenge you, biblically speaking, for a long time--I wasn't up to hearing you quote from Leviticus to Ecclesiates in order to convince me you are right about the Muslims and the Catholics. But now that I have had myself a good glass of Vitamin D milk, from a cow you probably think Jesus created Clay, but my friend Ahmed thinks Allah made the same cow when Jesus was walking on water or turning water to wine or whatever Jesus was doing that was a miracle, Allah made a cow, from which cow I have been supplied with enough vitamin D milk to give me the kind of energy to argue with you tonight. I have rethought my hasty pronouncement that you actually made sense with what you posted here against the high stepping high jinx of the Saddleback Church because such behaviors, not being solemn or pious enough for the church, are repugnant to you. So your church actually repudiated the muscle men for Jesus? Those guys would have jumped on stage and flexed their biceps--the very biceps Jesus created and fattened--they would have smashed a couple of concrete slabs and you could easily have explained to the sinners in the congregation that the muscle men's actions symbolized Jesus throwing out the avaricious merchants from the temple--"Bam, Bam!" the muscle men could have shouted even as they tore into the concrete slabs, "Just like Jesus throwing out the greedy little sales folks from their kiosks and shops in the House of God!" Done with the proper backdrop the whole thing would have played out like a high quality biblical lesson, people would have fallen over each other applauding, the muscle men would have looked like scholars, the children would have been entertained and the only casualties would have been the concrete slabs and you objected to this Clay because you thought God would disapprove? If you had lived during the time of Caligula Caesar, you would have been thrown to the lions for being a deadly pain in the royal butt biblical pedant.

When you get too far away from God's word you get too into your own fantasy. Thanks.

Amen Clay! And may be God's word and God are the fantasies. The religious have the richest fantasies among all the folks in the world. 5000 years of imagination and bam--then there was man and then there was woman and then there was a serpent and then an apple and then the clothes and then the miseries and then Abel and then Cain--heck and you say getting away from God's words leads to too many fantasies. Getting too close does the same or worse. I advise you to bring back the muscle men and spread the word of God. Biceps are just as good for the purpose as the Bible. In fact the biceps can be backdrop for the Bible--fantasy beefed up by muscle--what better way to acknowledge God?

I see nothing wrong with entertaining people and see nothing in the bible that prohibits entertainment. Yet if all you do is entertain, then you fail as a Christian to bring the gospel message to the people.

I think the church should be the center of many things, including the arts and entertainment. Perhaps if the church hadn't segregated the arts and entertainment from the church, arts and entertainment would still be God honoring.

As for Clinton speaking at Saddleback, I don't recall Christ avoiding those of differing opinions or even those very far from God. Shunning those with differing beliefs simply creates a ghetto for the church. One can be in the culture yet not of the culture.

Well there certainly are a lot of Christian plays that are God honoring, including "Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames." I suppose there will always be an element of entertainment in churches, some of course more than others. In addition, any mortal human asked to speak at a church is going to be a sinner no matter what. I suppose my point about Mrs. Clinton is that God sees abortion as murder and we need to be careful who we have for speakers and what they represent. Do the kids who heard her speak all understand that the church is against abortion? Or do they think that this church is softening it's stance? I also dont agree with women preaching or being the main pastor or youth pastor. Women are the backbone of the church but I believe that the bible says that God is calling men to do the leading. Thanks.

I know a lot of women who have cut off their breasts like Amazons and have transformed themselves into men with testosterone injections after having their ovaries lopped off. Where do such men stand with God, my dear God's mouth, also known as Clay? It gets curiouser and curiouser-- your belief system-- if I may add. .

Hello. God's mouth for us now is the bible and the Holy Spirit. He has quite a bit to say about the roles of men and women. He also can help you with anger. Thanks.

You have not answered my question Clay. There is no anger behind it, merely curiosity. If God is so clear about gender roles then God would not place on Earth a whole lot of people with ambiguous genitalia, gender dysphoria and all other conditions that occur at birth due to hormonal disorders. In these people gender is not clearly defined. There are those whose chromosomal sex is XY-male--but whose phenotypic sex--external appearance--is female. There are true hemaphrodites born with both testicular and ovarian components. There are pseudohemaphrodites who have resistance to testosterone hormone and even though they are males because their receptors to testosterone do not work, starting from birth their gender is assigned as female based on their appearance and this is not their true gender at all. The Bible seems to think there are males and females, clearly defined and well demarcated, with not to be negotiated roles and assigned jobs, according to you. A very shortsighted book this Bible because if God so made the world my friend, that females should be females and males should be males, this God also seems to have made a whole lot of people in between or with components of both genders--how should their roles be defined in the Church? Can a person with 5 alpha reductase deficiency who looks like a female until adolescence and then grows a beard and turns into a male be a minister or will that person be told you were a woman once and now you have no chance in this church? For a man (or a woman) about whose musings Dave T invoked Poe's law you have been persistent in your religious mumbo jumbo. Congratulations. Keep it up and you may yet see the light.

Having characteristics of both sexes is never an excuse to not follow God, no more than myself being part German and part Irish. In addition, in spite of any confusion on the part of anyone as to what sex roles they shall attempt to follow, the bible says that men are to run the churches. Thanks.

Your answer is a classic dodge Clay--men are to run the churches but what kind of men? A male by chromosome who is a female by appearance? A male by appearance who is a female by chromosome? What do you vote for--a phenotypic male who is a genotypic female or a genotypic male who is a phenotypic female? All these types exist in nature and the Bible is not up to the task of sorting these things out and hence you collapse with a namby pamby pabulum of an answer that everyone is supposed to love Jesus and accept Jesus? The question was not about who should or should not be pro Jesus; the question is if a man, a solid XY can run the church, his gender authenticated by a doc's certificate, if he looks like a female because his testosterone is ineffective from being born without testo receptors? Would you say that he cannot because testosterone is more important than chromosomal sex? And would you be able to show somewhere in the Bible that says you are right? Either you know this religion mess is a completely collapsible nonsense or you are holding it up even as it is falling on your head because you are an infernal irritant. You go read your Bible and I'll go read my Greek myths--it's all one and the same.

The best thing for someone to do who is not certain of what sex they are is to accept God and pray and let Him take care of the rest. Thanks.