I believe that parochial schools should be subsidized, particularly inner city schools which play a large part in raising educational standards of the children attending them and also provide a safe and healthy environment for the children in dangerous parts of the city. However, the main reason is that the parents who send their children to these schools are paying tax dollars into a public system from which they obtain no benefit and desrerve some of the tax money they spend to be funelled to their children. Although some people may suggest that this is their own choice, the reality is that many parents in the inner city who care about their children simply would not send their children to some of Dr Alonso's schools.

Correction: Archdiocese of Baltimore. There is no such thing as the Archdiocese of Maryland.

You think people who send their kids to private school "are paying tax dollars into a public system from which they obtain no benefit?" So what about people without children? Or people whose kids are already grown? Or parents of dropouts? Are they also gaining no benefit from funding public schools? Everyone benefits from public education because it makes society better.

Schools closing is a shame, but those are decisions made by the Archdiocese. Public funds should help public schools and I wish the best for teachers, administrators and especially the students of the closing schools.

David - When you say that inner city parochial schools should be subsidized, I think you ignore that parents have many non-public, secular, subsidized schools that they can choose from. I speak of course, of charter schools. A parent's decision to opt out and send their child to a religous school is their own, and government funding of religious institutions, even educational ones, can be the first step down a road that violates basic American principles.

Additionally, when you say that parents of parochial students don't get any benefit from their tax dollars that are spent on public schools, I disagree. Public schools, even the low quality ones, provide a net benefit to society. Consider what would happen if everyone without children, or without children in the public schools was allowed to be reimbursed for tax money that would be spent on education? Our entire society and economy would fall apart. That's one of the main reasons I oppose school vouchers, even though I realize there are some good arguments for them.

To answer the larger question of whether this is a sign that public schools are beginning to provide competition to private schools, I think the answer is probably in the elementary schools, but when I look at the charter high schools, it seems like the charters can't yet compete with City and Poly when it comes to data and the strength of the educational, let alone competing with private and parochial schools. Hopefully that will change soon.

I do not think parachoial schools should be subsidize. There is great demand at the quality charter schools and they should be supported. As I stated in another post my 5yr old son is #104 on the waitlist for the Baltimore Montessorri Public Charter school. And the charter that we got into only had 12 spaces and at least 100 applicants. Progressive parents don't want to have to pay tuition to send their kids to schools. And the current economy has forced many who would never consider even a quality public school to take a second look at the quality charters. And there are more high schools than City and Poly. There is Western, Baltimore School for the Arts and a little know gem and not praised enough Paul Lawrence Dunbar High right in the backyard of Hopkinsland. And I think that you will see great things from City Neighbors High School in the coming years.

Generally, I think the responses to David's original post make all the right points. I do have an issue with this statement from "Nadine Von Canstricus" - "can't yet compete with City and Poly when it comes to data and the strength of the educational, let alone competing with private and parochial schools". The implication being that private and parochial schools have greater educational strengths than any City School. Although it's hard to quantify school's achievements I'd argue that in many ways City, Poly (and Western and Baltimore School for the Arts and others) outperform private and parochial schools. Look at college acceptances, partnerships with Hopkins, learning about the reality of a diverse world (racially, economically, culturally). There are county residents that pay tuition to go to these schools.

It's not that I don't want to pay tuition for a private or parochial education. It's that a public, inclusive, diverse educational system is necessary for a just society, and participation and support from all members of our society are required to make all of our schools great.

First, the concept of a publicly-funded education is not to convey a benefit to any one particular citizen rather, to the public as a whole. Education exists to preserve our way of life. To that end, there is little societal gain in subsidizing Catholic schools. Second, I've always found it interesting that people who attended Catholic schools refer to their education as parochial rather than private, as if in an attempt to conceal financial means that many don't have (to pay for an education when one is avaiable for free). And finally, the problem of mixing faith and education is that, our faith and reverence to our Church clouds our judgment when addressing the more objective issues in educational policy. Many of the reasons for declining enrollments are, ironcally, the fault of the proponents of private education. 1) Tuition rises at no less than double the rate of inflation while personal income rises at half the rate of inflation. Simple math dicates that over time, the number of people who can afford a private/parochial education dwindle. Where were the supporters of subsidies for private schools in the fight for workers' rights? Many cast their votes for the Reagan/Bush policies that only widened the gap between haves and have-nots. 2) Those who chose Catholic school in the 1960's have since moved to the suburbs that offer a higher-quality public education eliminating the need for Catholic school in many cases. Ironic that many who contend that school choice is the key to better schools are now distraught that the choices that have been made over the last generation will now eliminate many Catholic schools. 3) The frank reality is that there is still a widely-held, credible belief that the Catholic Church has not done enough to safeguard children against abuse. Here, when one remains referent to the church, it become easy to overlook the FACT that there was a cover-up at the highest levels of the church. Pope Bennedict XVI, as a Cardinal, recommended the results of internal church investigations on abuse be sealed until after statutes of limitations prevented lawsuits. Priest accused of abuse were merely reassigned to other locations, and yes, I was offended when disgraced Cardinal Bernard Law defiantly spoke at the funeral of Pope JP II. This display made me question whether or not the church was genuinely remorseful for its transgressions.
So yes, many today are remembering fondly their Catholic school experience (myself included), but when studied objectively, the Church, and those of us who have reaped its benefits must bear a little of blame for today's misfortune.

I think all parents of kid who go to Catholic schools should put their kids into Publi schools, and see who parents scream then. Can the public system handle anothe 24000 kids? No way, they can;t do a good job with the numbers they have now.

David, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! I believe that parochial schools should be subsidized. The parents who send their children to these schools ARE paying tax dollars into a public system from which they obtain no benefit and deserve some of the tax money they spend. For the rest of you who disagree, you obviously do not have children in the private system so you don't know what it takes to make sure your child(ren)are getting a wonderful education without the worries of CRIME IN THE PUBLI SCHOOL SYSTEM!!! Our children deserve credit from OUR tax dollars!

okay why close all these schools it's only going to get bad classes will get bigger more fights some kids can't learn in big class rooms then what maybe if the catholic schools lower there prices then it will be okay so i hope something changes before all of this end up the wrong way

Dear commenters above, the catholic schools already ARE subsidized... the Archdiocese of Baltimore this past year even successfully lobbied the statehouse to add an EXTRA $2 million to the $2.8 million that the state budgeted for those schools. At the same time, due to the budget crunch, the state de-funded all Gifted/Talented education programs in the public schools, taking the money from successful programs that have been running for decades.

Whether you think it's OK or not, the religious schools are already subsidized, to the tune of millions of dollars, and the thanks for all that extra money this year was that they are closing schools all over the area. I guess it's a smart business move, I mean, why should the church serve a community where they aren't making any money... but given that they got all that extra tax money this year, I feel that it's like insult to injury.

Society at large benefits from private schools in exactly the same way that it benefits from private schools. Private schools are educating children not just in religion, but civics, language arts, math, and science as well - all subjects that public schools are teaching as well. While

I think I'm echoing Ms. Johnson's point when I say that these Catholic school closings are going to exert even more pressure on a public school system that is already too stressed.

Ok, my 2 cents worth. Simon, though I do understand your point about using government funds for a religious based school, most of these schools are not requesting funds to help teach religion but they are requesting funds to help keep the building warm, to help with special needs students (both ends of the spectrum) tio help with books, to help get their computers updated and a varied of other things. You might be suprised that there are some state funds directed to private schools for books (though the funds can not be used for religious books) These books are marked clearly that they were bought with state funds. In addition I understand your point about tax payers who do not have children etc. However, the children that are in private schools still should be entitled to the same consideration regardless of what type of school they go to. And food for thought, have you considered what a drain it would be to our public school systems if all private school students were to suddenly show up to their local public school this fall. Though you might not agree with all of that David stated, you do need to see that there could also be a consequence to an already strained school system in the event that our private school students should decide to go to a public school. With our economy as it is many parents are really struggling to keep their kids in the private school system as it is. I believe that many will be making a few priority adjustments for the coming school year, myself amoung them.

David.. I went to Catholic School - Graduated from Seton Keough in 2003 and went to St. Joes for graduate school. I received a top notch eduation that I caould not receive in Baltimore County... Do you know what the subsidised money coverered for my parents? Books, about $50 dollars worth and that was it. It was tough considering that some years we paid as much as $500 for books. Some students may receive more if they are from lower income areas. My parents aren't rich just your average middle class family and they sacrificed to send 3 of us to Catholic school (1 is still in middle school)so we could receive a better education than the one offered at our zoned school....But I do believe that alumni should consider giving more money to their schhols.

@Kelly and David:

We can't subsidize parochial schools, though your arguments do make a lot of sense. For one thing, parochial schools are religious, and church-state separation makes federal dolars a no-go. I should say that I think there are tons of religious initiatives that do fantastic things and it's nice when we can find ways to get them federal dollars.

The bigger reason, though, is that federal dollars are prohibited from going to organizations that discriminate. The Catholic church, like many churches, says explicitly who is allowed to have certain jobs, get married, etc, and who is not allowed to do those things. In some cases I think they're entitled to do that, even if I can't stand it, but they can't have both federal funding and discrimination.

David, I'm concerned about your comment about crime in public schools. I've spent my whole career in the public school system. Which crimes are you talking about? Which schools? Our schools aren't perfect, but if you're going to spread fear about my kids' schools, you've got to have the details to back it up.

For the bigger question. There are some public schools that are definitely competing. Ideally, though, it wouldn't be about competetition. It would be about every child having options that are successful and available.

To the comments made by Sean: We pay taxes for a lot of things that don't have any direct involvement in our lifestyles.

Although it would be real nice for my finances, I don't think a tax break on sending my child to catholic school would be the best. I do think that public schools using $22,000 tax dollars a year to educate one student is by far ridiculous. That child could basically have his/her own personal tutor for that much.

Create more vocational tech schools for disruptive teens and children with learning disabilities. Teach them a career path. Let's not spend the money on things that aren't working. I would rather my hard-earned tax dollars go to schooling that works, whether it be private or public.

From Liz: Just a point of correction. The average per pupil expenditure in Maryland for public schools in 2007 was just over $10,000...Even Montgomery County doesn't spend close to $22,000 per child.

Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?

Make education strictly a pay-as-you-go affair. I am single and have no kids, so why should I be taxed to pay for educating someone else's little darlings?
You don't pay a toll for the Bay Bridge unless you actually use the damned thing.
Make it the same with schools. And don't give me this "it benefits society as a whole" argument. Look what is being produced annually in Baltimore City schools at a ridiculous price.

kb, I think that many alumni of Catholic schools DO support their schools, as much as they can. But alumni have kids to educate too, and alumni are also suffering in this economy. Tuition was over $12,000 for our youngest at her Catholic high school. We are now over $30,000 in debt for college loans, many to private Catholic colleges. We receive regular fund-raising requests from my husband's Catholic elementary school, high school, college, and grad school; my high school; three Catholic high schools our kids attended; and Catholic colleges. We also contribute regularly to our parish and its many fundraisers. I do not have to add about the hefty property taxes we pay! If we had more, we would give more. I am very sorry to see these schools close, but there are only so many rich alumni to go around!

I must say as a parent of three catholic school children; reading some of your comments troubles me. Have any of you really thought about where your tax dollars are already going? All of us pay taxes on things that we may not benefit from but the way I see it, if my money helps a child/family succeed the so be it. That's the problem now nobody wants to help anybody at all. Do you realize that these children are going to be our future lawmakers, educators and so forth? My husband and I have two children in whom are in catholic school and another in a city school that we pay tuition for just because we live in the county. We don't get any financial breaks at all! (no discounts or tuition assistance). According to BCPS we're only allowed to send our children to 1 elementary school, 1 middle school and 1 high school in my area. They all SUCK! let me remind you, we live in Baltimore County. The only choice we had was to pay for their education. Now that our kid's catholic school is closing we're trying to figure out our next move. The schools with the great standardized test score and other amenities are very expensive; many of the other catholic school test score were extremely low, barely reaching the 50th percentile national average. Now why would I pay to send my kids to a school whose doing just as bad as my local public school? Needless to say we'll be paying those higher tuition fees! Guess what......while we're paying that high tuition we'll still be paying taxes for someone else to benefit from and we DON'T mind at all!!!!!! My husband and I are products of the Baltimore City Public school system and we were raised in tuff neighborhoods. We both have college degrees and have successful careers. Violence doesn't only occur in city schools, its everywhere!

Comments to Josh: I'm not sure what bias you have about Catholic school parents, but we did not all vote for Bush. As to the question of where we were in the fights for worker justice, why many of us were there! Perhaps you didn't recognize us. As for other comments, I frequently see people refer to the separation of church and state. The reason Catholic schools were founded was that the public schools were Protestant, not secular. See to the history. As an aside, as a child in New Jersey, I had access to publicly-funded transportation to my Catholic grade school, and my children, when we lived in Pennsylvania, also had publicly funded transportation in Lancaster County, where the majority of religious schools were Mennonite and Amish, not Catholic. None of this caused the fall of Western civilization.

I am really sad to see that St. William of York School is among those that are being closed. As a 1989 graduate from St. William of York, I am very disheartened to hear this news. I loved attending school here, I loved my friends that I made. The entire staff was kind and gentle, caring and nurturing. And the teaching staff was out of this world! They really went above and beyond for each and every one of their students. Thank you to all of my teachers and the staff who helped mold me into the woman I have become today. You will forever me in my memory!

Why can't the Roman Catholic Church subsidize these schools? You mean to tell me the Pope and the Vatican with all of their billions, can't fork over a couple million to these schools in the US? Why does the little person,who is struggling, always have to foot the bill?

The benefit of Catholic schools is in the methods that they use to teach. It is based on repetition, homework and testing. They give a lot of homework. If you are in high school, expect 3 hours average, per night. That is why their students do better than their public school counterparts. The public schools could do the same thing, but they won't, unless you are in a GT class.

I thank God and my mother everyday that my brother and I were able to attend Catholic elementary and high schools. It irritates me that Cardinal Keeler and the Catholics in the Archdiocese of Baltimore spent millions of dollars to renovate the Basilica knowing that our inner city schools and Parishes were and continue to struggle. Our Church leaders constantly preach to give and mission to the poor. I am a member of a struggling inner city Parish that has daily programs working with the poor, homeless, drug addicts, and anyone else who walks through our doors. We ARE the poor and we are helping ourselves. The Archdiocese of Baltimore is interested in one thing...money. Interesting how there are no county schools that have to close or no county Parishes forced to merge. Shame on our Church leaders. I love my religion, but I don't like my Church.

JO, SOMEONE PAID TAXES FOR YOU TO ATTEND SCHOOL THAT DIDNT HAVE CHILDREN SO YOU REAPED FROM SOMEONE AS WELL.

My daughter has been in Catholic School for 7 years and we just found out her school is closing. Its hurtful to know that there a people who think my tax dollars shouldnt also go to private schools. My taxes also pay for children in public school with no benefit for my own children. I dont complain in that regard. My childrens catholic school was not in debt and the enrollment hadnt fallen that low. The Catholic school system supports itself and if there were problems, tax money should be available for the Archioses to utilize.

First all the discussion about free public schools is laughable. There is not tuition just the politicians taking money from all the paychecks to cover the escalating costs of free school. Wake up you already pay for education.
Second Father Hartnett’s comment about going out to see the parents and listen but with no intention of changing any decision shows just how arrogant the clergy have become. They believe the church is what exists at the Power Tower and in the rectories and we should all kneel and bow when we are supposed to because the church is them. Jesus won’t be happy when he returns.
I have no lack of belief but I have NO FAITH in the LEADERSHIP of the Roman Catholic Church in Baltimore

I am a Catholic school mother and I assure you I did NOT vote for Bush. My daughter's school closed last year (Catholic Community School) when my daughter was in the 7th grade. It's really hard on a middle schooler to have to change schools at that time and just for one year. I looked at 4 schools, and 3 of them were shut. It's a disgrace. I agree with the other woman's comments - why did they spend so much money on the Basillica when they shut down our schools? Aren't are kids more important than a monument to the Bishop??

I am totally disgusted with the Catholic church. Their priorities are so wrong.

So now Gibbons know how we at TC felt when Tinder (now deceased) closed us down last year. Where was all the Catholic community support for TC? Now you can dangle in the wind as we did!

I attended Catholic School from first grade through graduate school. Faith was the first, and only reason, my family sent us to Catholic school. In fact, I even became a nun and taught parochial school for ten years. I left religious life 25 years ago and am now a wife, mother, and public school teacher. It disturbs me that not one of the parents of parochial school students mentions faith as the reason for sending your children to parochial school. Attending parochial school has become elitist and racist. It is not the parochial school I attended in the 60's. In the last ten years, the children who come to my public school, from parochial schools, lag far behind my public school students. My children have all attended public school. Since most of this talk seems to be about money, then I will make my own financial comment. You couldn't pay me to send my children to parochial school.

It's not good when dedicated teachers and students lose a venue, and the reactions to the closing of Cardinal Gibbons attests to that. Food for thought; This could be a ramification of recent disclosures of this religion's penchant for relocating authority figures who have been accused of extremely improper behavior, almost always involving pre-adolescent students. The overwhelming majority of these closings in Baltimore County are of elementary schools. I don't know this for sure, I'm just sayin'...

This letter is written for those administrators, faculty, staff, parents and students who will be directly affected by the school closings and consolidations in the Diocese of Baltimore. I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania and am a parishioner in the Diocese of Allentown where within the past three years our Catholic community has been affected by numerous parish consolidations and closings along with numerous school consolidations and closings. Although my knowledge of the details of your circumstances are limited by what I have gleaned from newspaper and internet coverage of the announcements and stories, I have found there to be numerous parallels specifically with what our school community endured three years ago with the closing of Cardinal Brennan High School .I had been a faculty member there for six years until the building was ordered closed by diocesan officials. An announcement was made on February 6, 2007 that the school's financial situation would be evaluated and a decision made on whether or not it could remain viable. Debt at the time was estimated to be near three quarters of a million dollars. A meeting was arranged where diocesan officials would show up and report their evaluation to the school community along with any and all interested parishioners from the affected churches. At that meeting on March 4, 2007, representatives from the diocese attended and would gather input and then relay their findings to the Diocesan Pastoral Council which would review every letter, e-mail, and other correspondence from the community before any decision would be made by the Bishop. In a letter sent to all parents of affected schoolchildren, our former Bishop stated that he met with the Pastoral Council eleven days later and heard remarks from the Pastoral Council, the Diocesan Financial Council and the Council of Priests who all recommended that the school be closed since they found no proposal which could save the school. He stated that after prayerful consideration he accepted the recommendations to close Cardinal Brennan High School. Three years later, this community still reacts with anger and frustration over this decision due to information which surfaced after the building was closed. A few months after the final school days were over at Cardinal Brennan HS, many of us who worked there were told that administrators of the area public schools knew the building would officially close well before the first evaluation meeting was announced. Therefore, the meeting and all proposals perused by the diocese was nothing but an act of pacification to make the people feel as if they actually had a voice or could perhaps do something to save the school. Faculty members and parents heard that offers had been made to pay the outstanding debt, although we don't know if those rumors are true and if those rumors are valid, then diocesan officials chose not to pursue that option. I preface this commentary with great care so that I'm not accused of making libelous statements.The community feels betrayed since they were not told the truth. My thoughts and prayers are with the parents and the students of the schools affected by the decision of the Diocese of Baltimore. May God bless you! If anyone would like to contact me regarding my comments or would like to share their experiences, please feel free to contact me at ernestomassaro@yahoo.com.

Ernest M. Massar, Jr.
Pennsylvania

Can anyone help me? I am a 26 yr. old mother of 3. I have always wanted to send my daughters to a Catholic school but they are just so expensive. Do they offer any help?

Elyse:

The answer to your question is there may be some help. You should check in with specific schools to see if they offer assistance.

The reality is, though, that offering assistance to families is one of the reasons Catholic schools have gotten into trouble financially. The schools, for a number of reasons, have faced declining enrollment. And then many of those enrolled were not paying full tuition. This makes for a difficult economic situation, which leads to closing schools.

Would you consider having your kids attend a charter school? What grades are they in?

Two schools of thought:
1. Send your children to a Christian school so that they can be raised in a manner close to the Christian principles we hold so dear. At some point, we all walk out of school and deal with the realities of the world. Christian education aims to prepare children and young adults for that experience.
2. Send your children to public school and expose them to the real world at an early age. As they grow, their parents and community can teach them to deal with the contrasts between Christian teaching and society.

I don't see why either cannot work. Personally I attended Catholic School (St. Ursula '96, Loyola '00) and then public school (Naval Academy '04). Like most people, I have met Christians from all sorts of backgrounds, and I really do believe that home life is a thousand times more significant than school in terms of learning what it means to be a Christian. That being said, I continue to feel immense gratitude toward my parents for their sacrifices over the years.

So now back to the actual discussion: should the state (or county/city) support private institutions with public funds? In this case, the state would be spending money for the benefit of society (an educated populace). How much money? It depends on the particular school, but I see no problem with the state stepping in to provide "rescue" dollars for a school on the precipice of closure. If the place shuts down, the financial burden will ultimately fall on the public schools anyway. Allowing private schools to "fail" might cost the city quite a bit. Instead of spending some cash to keep a school open, the city schools would then have hoards of new students showing up in September, each needing books/desks/etc. I don't have any numbers to back me up on this, but it would be interesting to see how the numbers would play out. Has anyone here seen actual research of this kind?
The other argument, "Separation of Church and State," is a touchy one that I would be more than happy to tackle in a more private setting (feel free to e-mail me).