I have a friend who did TFA in Baltimore who majored in Bioengineering from a very good school. However, since most of her classes were officially labeled as "ENGI" or "BioE" classes, Maryland said she was not highly qualified enough to teach middle school science and she taught elementary school instead (and taught very well).

I understand and agree that we need our subject teachers to have advanced understanding of their topics. Believe me, as someone who has led PD for math teachers in the city, I definitely agree with this. However, when the requirement is so specific it starts preventing people who are more than intellectually qualified from filling hard-to-fill positions (especially in math, science and foreign languages).

This isn't just a problem for TFA, it's a problem system-wide. BCTR was allowed to lower the requirement for secondary math teachers to increase the number of math teachers they brought in; some BCTR math teachers majored in a math-related field like mechanical engineering, then took an extra summer class or two so they could be labeled highly qualified. But even outside the realm of alternative certification programs, there are people who might be qualified to teach in terms of knowing the material and willing to teach, but the system is preventing them from becoming teachers because they don't have the official credits.

Somehow we need to balance making sure that our teachers are competent enough in their subjects with not weeding out potential teachers unnecessarily. This goes beyond just TFA.

As a math teacher, let me just add that there's probably a lot of Harvard grads I don't want teaching Algebra I if I'm the one who has to teach Algebra II. Just because you come from a good school doesn't mean you know every subject.

TFA people come to schools to make a big difference in the world, spend two years and than go get a job where they can make a REAL difference.......in their pocket.

I find it appalling that people use our children as a two - three years stepping stone before law school...

I know that any discussion of TFA invariably falls into uninformed comments like this, but I still want to address Tim:

Not everyone in TFA leaves the classroom after 2 years. And many times those who do leave the classroom go on to other leadership roles in the school system. And while there are TFA people who don't become career teachers, there are also people who are teaching in Baltimore and all around the country who wouldn't have been teachers at all if it weren't for TFA. Take for example....me.

Tim, I hope you're saving your outrage for all the other traditionally certified teachers who teach for a year in Baltimore, decide it's too hard and bail for another district or another job. Teacher retention is NOT just a TFA (or alt. cert.) problem, it's a district problem. If you're mad at people for leaving, you need to look at the whole picture and get mad at a lot more people.

Darn those TFA teachers who leave for law school. What uncaring jerks!

I suspect that there's a chance that some TFA-backlash may result from this post, but I think the critical issue is encompassed Simon's post. I don't care if you're traditional ed, BCTR, TFA, Soldiers-to-Teachers program, etc... if you're qualified to teach, the certification roadblock shouldn't be a litmus test. Will be interested in people's thoughts to this issue, though.

The question that no one has wanted to address is how to KEEP good teachers. If the City Schools wants to -- experienced teachers with higher education are, in actuality, more expensive for the system as a whole, regardless of how it appears on a school's budget...

I recently discovered that direct payment tuition discounts are being pulled from over 50% of the local college programs. That means that City teachers who were able to get their 50% tuition discount up front now have to pay FULL tuition and wait for a reimbursement, if it ever comes. Imagine finding this out only weeks before tuition is due for summer classes (required for some programs) -- double the tuition bill! And they never reimbursed me for my Master's degree tuition -- I was told "Read the fine print in the contract -- reimbursement is on an "as available" basis... wonder how many of us will be reimbursed now?!?! And these are for degrees in higher ed, NOT law degrees...

The message? BCPSS doesn't want to make it easy for City teachers to further their education and stay in City schools. City Schools also doesn't value teachers in the small ways that make a teacher feel appreciated (sorry, 1 teacher per school going to a free ballgame doesn't make me feel appreciated). Try improving bureaucracy for teacher support -- THAT makes a teacher feel appreciated. Not being hassled about legitimate absences -- THAT makes a teacher feel appreciated. Being given some sort of comp time for running legitimate after-school programs for FREE -- THAT would make a teacher feel appreciated!

So, bloggers, HOW do we keep good teachers???

Tim, your comment indicates that you don't know that much about TFA or the people involved.

As a former TFAer (who is still teaching in City Schools) I have been critical of certain aspects of the program in the past. But I have never once doubted that TFAers are a group of people who care intensely about the young people they work with. I think that many of us have not mastered humility and the ability to gracefully navigate the political aspects of Baltimore's educational community, but never doubt that we care about our kids. When I look at my TFA peers, almost all of them have stayed in the field of education or public service.

Even if you don't want to give credence to my anecdotal data, take a look at the facts. Personal and career choices aside, TFA teachers are effective in the classroom. Mutliple studies, as well as the willingness of prinicples to hire them speak to that fact. If they make a personal choice to leave the classroom, that's their decision.

I seriously think you should reserve your judgement for situations where you know more about what you're talking about.

And to Ummm -
In my opinion, the make or break factor in teacher retention is a strong administration. Having worked for three principals in three years, I can attest that fact! I want to feel supported, backed up, and I want to feel like the administration can help make me a better teacher. Get these ineffective admins out, and STOP shuffling around the ones who have a poor track record.

Ohhh....I knew this article would generate some good talk!!

These are my thoughts:

1. Dr. Alonso's willingness to work with a program like TFA and try to increase its ranks in the city only solidifies the belief that idelogical and pedgogical compatibility among Alonso and TFA is paramount over long-term teacher retention.

Im going out on a limb here, but this is my line of thinking here:

Recognizing that teacher retention is a chronic issue that affects us (and always will) while simultaneously recognizing that there are always hordes of young, idealistic and willing teachers from TFA, you sort of have a perfect storm. Cycling in hundreds of those young, fresh teachers who are full of spirit and verve, while paying them less and having them come committed to the classroom( even in the short-term) essentially circumvents teacher retention issues. Retention almost becomes a moot point. And if some of them stay, its a bonus. If not, there are more lined up out the door.

2. (and more importantly) Why is Alonso looking to double its TFA commitment while slashing the BCTR commitment in half-208 to 100. Leaving pedagogical differences aside for a moment-In my rudimentary dealings with cohorts from both, BCTR tends to attract a much more regional crowd. By that I mean, many more BCTR people are from Baltimore City and the close area in general. Not all, but many. The opposite can be said of TFA'ers. Many (if not most) are from far-away places that have little connection to Baltimore. They have little familial, emotional, or financial connections to Baltimore. Some stay, but many do not. It does us NO good if we say they stay in educational-related fields. If its not in Baltimore, it does us little practical good. But then again, the argument is being made here that Alonso doesnt really care about teacher retention-he cares about ideological lock-step. So the argument is full circle to me then.

If we are talking pedagogical differences between the two programs, its hard to see where they exist. BCTR is an off-shoot of The New Teacher Project-an off-shoot of TFA. Go figure why one would get doubled while the other cut in half and they are essentially the same thing. I would love an answer for that one.

It is not teaching for america, but teaching for the other america.

Many TFA teachers are wonderful: some are clearly inadequate, their bona fides notwithstanding. Many veteran teachers are inadequate. This is not really the point.

TFA, as a structural, rhetorical component of urban school reform (what urban superintendent wouldn't want that particular 'bang for his or her buck' as they work to assuage the manufactured reality of troubled urban schools?) is a perfect realization of our schizophrenia and the lie we tell.

America is more unequal and less socially mobile in class structure than it has ever been.

Yet to maintain our mythopoetic belief in america we produce a program like TFA that allows us to maintain that the separate and unequal schools (and the specific geographic and demographic human reality that they represent) are genuinely "public" while they elide that they help perpetuate and are complicit in the maintenance of extreme social inequality.

Feel good, while doing good, teach for the the other america. All that money that went for a good college education---another mechanism of social class exclusion---can now pay off in ethical, moral dividends.

The vast majority of kids in bcpss are the faces at the bottom of the well and alonso is talking about a better bucket.

I have heard all of the arguments for and against TFA for years. I have had some TFAs who were wonderful and some who stunk--same as with other certification methods. I do however agree that TFA is a program that does create a "feel good" attitude that doesn't hold up. One of my better TFA teachers left after three years to live closer to her home. Therein lies the real problem--do we want to have teachers that have an attachment to the area or not? Our students need stability but people who are unwilling to make Baltimore their "home" do not improve the school overall. Meanwhile, BCPSS is making staying with the system more and more difficult. Retention is the key as more and more of the experienced teachers retire. Wake up, Alonzo, and smell the coffee.

@David - Only my sense, but I would guess that TFA numbers increasing and BCTR decreasing is because TFA has its teachers actively track data on student gains and can present this to Alonso. We can go back and forth forever about how valid, reliable, etc. these pre/post assessments are, but at least TFA is attempting to do it.

From what I know of BCTR, they do not actively track gains (someone correct me if I am wrong - I'd love to know more about this), so there is little to no data to support their effectiveness (they could be highly effective - there is just no data). I think Alonso is driven by data, and right now, TFA has more of it.

Another thing TFA does better than BCTR is spotlight their alum in leadership positions (and there are a good number of them in Baltimore). It is a clear part of TFA's mission to track their alum and actively facilitate their on-going work in education (and yes, in other fields as well).

My hypotheses on the numbers flip-flop - I'm open to others?

D.O.--
I was just going to say the same thing! BCTR being cut and TFA expanding makes no sense. Not only does BCTR attract a "more regional crowd" it also tends to attract more career changers. So instead of idealistic 22 year olds getting their first real job, it's already established people who have seen what else is out there and choose teaching anyway.

OKAY. First of all, I do know what I am talking about in some sense. I have been teaching in Baltimore City Schools for 5 years in a zone school.

Many TFA people do take on leadership roles - they oversee other TFA people after they spend their two years and make sure that the tracking sheets are received and all the other propaganda the association produces.

Many also go on to run schools. And YES many stay in schools and teach.

I may not know the inner workings of how TFA operates, which actually makes me see this clearer. If anything being close to TFA makes it harder to see the truth. I did NOT spend a summer in a dorm room with other young white rich kids listening to Wendy Kopp's ultra simplistic view of how WE can make our education woes disappear.

Here are my points simply:

TFA is an organization that is not devoted to making lifetime teachers.

TFA is data driven and hard on its first year teachers- which actually drives them out of the classroom.

TFA institute teaches members to believe that veteran teachers subscribe to teachers lounge negativity and dont really care about children.

TFA members are hard working, dedicated, and sometimes insane.

TFA in many ways degrades the profession of the traditional teacher.

TFA creates and manipulates data in a favorable way for its organization.

Thats all i have for truths. Sorry to stir the pot so much.

Tim:

I know I shouldn't engage here, but I feel obligated to address a few points. You do clearly have a perspective about TFA, but I think you may be over-simplifying the organization. Would it be fair to say that every teacher at X school is ineffective because many of them are? Is it fair to say that a non-profit in 32 (I think) cities operates the exact same way even though each one has a different executive director and program staff? Is it fair to think that a 5-week professional development program has the capability of completely breaking down individuality for individuals who have demonstrated an ability lead in their undergrad careers? If your answer is yes to all of these questions, then I understand your premise. If not, I think it's a bit too generalized to make such bold claims about a huge cohort of individuals, each of whom have their own styles, hopes, career paths, callings, etc.

Many take on TFA careers afterwards? There are 4-5 program director positions, and maybe 4 TFA career jobs after the 2-year commitment. Of a class of 95, assuming that every job gets filled by a post-two-year corps member from a city, that means about 8.4% go on to a TFA career track. I think it's difficult to say that's "most."

In your comments you make it seem as though each corps member has intimate knowledge about the inner-workings of the organization. I don't think this is true, this coming from a corps member who has no idea how TFA operates on a national scale.

I can't tell you how many TFA emails I get as an alumnus that urge us to consider opportunities in school leadership (as a teacher-leader, assistant principal, counselor, or principal). The alumni magazine is completely filled with advertisements of schools trying to attract alumni to teach , not to oversee other TFA teachers. Anecdotal evidence, yes, but evidence nonetheless.

Looking at TFA in the teaching-only realm completely misses the point of the organization. I've written this before, so sorry for the duplication, but TFA admits (1) it's not the solution, (2) teacher retention is critical to sustainable ed reform, and (3) the educational achievement gap is too significant for educators to address it in a silo. The only way that major school reform will take place will be if many, many sectors turn their attention to education to make it a national priority. This takes policy makers, lawyers, doctors, community activists, non-profit operators, construction developers, scientists, etc to accomplish. The mission is not, "Every school will have great teachers." Rather (and unfortunately I know this phrase all too well), the mission is, "One day all children will have the opportunity to have an excellent education." That takes great teachers, but it also takes money, political will, great facilities, good health care, technological integration and development, and many other advancements. A person limits TFA's mission by evaluating the two-year teaching commitment alone.

What evidence do you have that TFA manipulates data? Individual teachers? The WHOLE ENTIRE organization fabricates data? Independent researchers not funded in any way by TFA sources are collectively involved in this conspiracy to only provide good numbers?

Data is important for all teachers, first year and beyond. Sometimes it is overwhelming, and TFA's mission pushes corps members to adopt the need to motivate/engage students to achieve at least 1.5 grade levels in one year, assuming that the majority of students being taught are at least 2 years behind their more affluent peers. To know whether this is happening, data is critical. Challenge the process and the data-collection methods, but challenging the need for data seems a bit misguided if we're willing to admit that students in rural and urban districts are generally in fact at least 2 years behind their peers who attend public schools in more affluent zip codes.

I really think it's a shame that you think TFA degrades the profession. TFA is failing if that's the message embraced by the majority of those not affiliated with the organization. However, given endorsements by the newly elected President, the U.S. Secretary of Education, many superintendents, and significant numbers of principals in Baltimore, I think that impression is not widely held. There's no question, I could be completely wrong. And if I am, TFA and it's corps members are failing.

TFA's mission/curriculum goes to great lengths to challenge assumptions corps members may have coming into the organization about race, diversity, poverty, generational gaps, etc. No question, it could do better, but it absolutely does not "teach[] members to believe that veteran teachers [] don't care about children." In fact, corps members are strongly encouraged to engage veteran teachers to learn from them and their more rich experiences. Because a few corps members may choose not to do so does not mean that the organization as a whole subscribes to the ideas you've conveyed (sorry for the double-negative).

Quick fact addressing the race issue: TFA was the single biggest employer of Spelman College graduates this year. Similar was the case for a number of other HBCUs in 2009. Say what you will about the racial diversity of the organization, but this fact alone should lead credence to the idea that the organization relentlessly pursues a diverse corps.

Should TFA not empower its members to believe that they can have a part of a mission to affect educational reform? What would you rather the organization do? Tell them education is a lost cause, do what you can for 2 years, and get out? The fact that the organization does empower corps members, and keeps tack of them after the two year commitment, I believe, is evidence that the organization hopes to keep focus on a problem that can be addressed (and, I don't think it requires a revolution - it just requires an incredible amount of attention, dedication, and major shift in national priorities).

TFA is not at all perfect, and it's not the end-all. It's a lever that's helping to nudge public attention to major educational problems in our country. It won't be the remedy, but it will be a powerful force in influencing reform agendas.

Could it be more effective? Yes. Does it constantly reform itself as an institution to strive to do so? Absolutely. The data isn't used merely to increase corp members' placement locations, it's used to change the organizational structure and mechanisms - for instance, from what I hear institute this upcoming summer is significantly different (and better) than it was for me in 2005 (this knowledge comes from a friend/alumnus who taught at Calverton for 2 years and KIPP one year and who's using the Baltimore experiences he acquired to revise the national institute curriculum to address some of the issues you've mentioned).

It's a shame that you don't like the organization (I don't want to put words in your mouth), but I hope a few things I've written slightly broaden your perspective as to the purpose of the organization.

I wrote way too much, sorry. Clearly, I think TFA has a place in ed reform, even if I agree that externalities to its expansion may result.

And I messed up the quotation: "... to ATTAIN an excellent education." Not "have." Bad form.

In my 4 years I've known five very nice TFA teachers and six BCTR teachers. Currently none of the TFA teachers and two of the BCTR teachers are still in the classroom (After the 1st two years of teaching). The others have either gone on to law, medical, or graduate school with no current intentions of returning to the classroom. That's not promoting teacher retention and consistency for Baltimore's communities.

Do some TFA members stay in the classroom and become wonderful permanent fixtures in the community? Yes. But I think even TFA's skewed numbers would show the majority use TFA as a stepping stone to a bigger and better career. Personally don't like to think of my career... the one I decided to join in college and dedicated my time to learning... as a stepping stone to something "Better". Becoming a teacher-leader or program director is not the same as staying in the classroom and building long-term relationships with the community around the school. I understand the need to defend the experience from the TFA members posting, and I'm not here pointing my finger at you personally. However, I don't think it's right when an urban school system (lets say NYC to make it less personal) readily accepts TFA, but has stated they will not hire new teachers coming out of their own colleges (including Columbia's Teaching College). So it's better to take the 2-3 year cheap new teachers instead of the already certified “this is what I want to do for 35 years” new teachers?

Honestly this issue is probably too hot, and I should have stayed out of it.

I feel obliged to share a couple points, as a TFAer who left after two years and feels zero guilt about it.

1. Experiences that completely shape or reshape your perspective. I have a friend who is getting a PhD at Stanford right now in Educational Policy. She will be advising a bunch of politicians on what to do about education...and yet, she will have zero front-line experience, never having actually worked in a school building or system. Is this the type of person we want - the theoretical, but lacking practical - to create new educational policy? So ya, some of us leave after two years - get over it! The mission of TFA is to create a holistic solution to our nation's education gap, that involves players from diverse backgrounds. My time in the classroom is extremely valuable in shaping the type of policies I will create.

2. Holistic Solutions: I mentioned this above, but we must tackle the education gap from a myriad of perspectives. For me personally, that means healthcare. I left for medical school after teaching because all too often our children arrive lacking basic care that could help them improve in the classroom. I don't see this as degrading the teaching profession or creating a terrible cycle of transient teachers as some have mentioned above. Rather, I see this as a critical next step in improving education. Taking my experiences and actually teaching my colleagues in Medicine what to expect and how to approach all children will enhance all of our effectiveness.

3. Outside perspectives should be valued. I firmly believe that while local, community-grown leaders are essential, bringing in teachers from outside the region should be equally valued and cherished. 94% of my students had never been on an airplane, the majority had never traveled outside Baltimore, and there were a few that had not even visited the Inner Harbor. These are amazing opportunities that our kids miss out on! Being from California as I am, I was able to bring a different perspective - a different way of doing things and thinking that enhanced my childrens' thinking.

4. Let me end with this: I had the honor of facilitating the learning of some awesome and challenging 8th graders. I wish some of our young Scholars who read this blog would comment...but the reality is that most of our kids can't differentiate between the TFA and traditional track teachers. They CAN however, differentiate between the good and bad teachers, groups of which belong to both TFA and traditional track. In the end, if we ALL do our jobs - teachers, doctors, lawyers, politicians, nutritionists, the local groceries, housing, churches and the individuals in the community - programs like BCTR and TFA, having accomplished their missions, will be able to triumphantly shut their doors.

Bill, First of all your comments are thoughtful and you sincerely are an advocate for TFA, which is commendable. To be quite honest, The problem I have with TFA is the feeling of superiority I believe it engraves in its people. This is also anecdotal.

The bottom line is this, TFA serves a purpose in staffing at needs schools.

My problem is that I dont see it as a answer.

The learning curve for a teacher is atleast one year and possibly two years - How does this affect children outside of data test scores?

10-15 percent of TFA corps members leave before their 2 years are up.

About 1/3 stay for a third year.

This is completely unacceptable and the root of my problem with TFA.

TFA spends around 80 million dollars to train and support its 4,000 corps members and last years corps members. 10,000 dollars on a corps member?

Anyone and I mean anyone who has worked in an urban district should understand the problems with high turnover rate we have already.

I would take 2 people from any community college who are committed to spend 5 years in a Baltimore City School over 2 from Yale who want to spend 2 years in the same school. After all, they can be trained to work in a school. Educational background, as Simon explained, doesnt always translate to good teachnig.

Diversity? The one question I have always wondered is this: How do new TFA corps members live in Manhattan off of their shabby salary? I suspect socioeconomic diversity is lacking in the staff overall.

From ERIC "While most of the TFA teachers tended to leave by the end of year three, teachers in other alternative certification programs remained with the system at higher rates than regularly certified teachers through years four and five."

Who knows? I just cant buy into all this yet.

Here is my final posting:

The first three drop down tags at the top of the TFA website read, “What We Do,” “The Core Experience,” “After the Corps.” Teaching is not a career for this organization, it is an “experience.” You can write about it in your annual Christmas letter and show up your cousins who went straight to law school instead of differing for two years to work in the inner city.

You now have some “cred” when talking about why No Child Left Behind sucks. Oh, and, of course, you can put it on your resume.

And TFA will help you make that resume! Just check out the “After the Corps” section of their website. It’s chock full of career services and options of what you can do after you’ve gotten tired of “closing the education gap.”

They even have partnerships with various employers such as Morgan Stanley, Deloitte, JP Morgan, and Lehman Brothers, all of which allow TFA members to defer their high paying jobs as management consultants and financial analysts to teach for two years in the trenches of underachieving schools.

Still not convinced? Listen to how much those two years of teaching forever changed this TFA alumnus:

"Looking back, I’m so glad I chose to teach before embarking on this next phase of my career. I developed skills that empowered me to excel beyond my peers in business school: organization, effective time management, dexterity in communication and public speaking, and the ability to think on my feet. The responsibilities I shouldered in the classroom prepared me like nothing else could for the challenges of management, communication, and intense focus that characterize my current position, where I conduct industry research, create financial models, identify industry trends, and explain their implications."

-Scott, an analyst at Lehman Brothers

Isn’t that beautiful? Isn’t that what teaching is all about? Becoming a better financial analyst? Bravo Scott!

Well...it's finally happened. I am in total agreement with Bill.
I challenge anyone to show me an organization that is doing as much as-or more than- Teach For America to address the educational inequities that exist in this country.

As a teacher who came to teaching through a traditional route I am of two minds about TFA. From grade school all I wanted to do was teach and to that end I sought out experiences through my high school and college career that would help me be a better teacher. I study elementary education in college and graduated with a BS in Elementary Education. I then came to teach in Baltimore. During my tenure in Baltimore I had the opportunity to teach with outstanding TFA teachers, educators who challenged me and helped support me in our bid to help our school be a better place for our students to learn. I am not sure that I would say that I have met a bad TFA teacher but I have met TFA teachers that were just completely not ready to take on an urban classroom and became completely overwhelmed by the task that they faced.
So from my own personal experience I have seen the best and a complete train wreck.
I served as the chairman of my school's SIT for 4 years, During that time we developed plans to support new teachers many of whom where TFA program participants. We honestly asked ourselves do we as a school have the resources to support an individual that will be gone in two years -do we have time/money and energy to put into what in some instances became a consumable resource? Often times the answer was no but we did our best for our students and for the teacher and overtime there was a hidden resentment at those that would arrive, fulfill their commitment and then depart leaving us to only start the process over again. To go on to "bigger and better" things, to positions that will influence education policy, to more respected profession and many of the TFA teacher great and not so great often stated publicly that this was a resume building job for medical or law school.

So I agree with the statement that TFA degrades the teaching profession because it does not view teaching as job/Carree/ good enough to hold on to but rather it is a stepping stone.
Having come through a traditional route to the classroom I found at times it hard to swallow that my TFA colleagues were having the Masters Degrees paid for,(while I had to pay my own way and continue to but supplies for my classroom) were often held up as the example and were often recognized by the school system with receptions and access to school system leadership. I at times felt as a second class teacher and I know that many of my traditional teacher friends felt this way too. No flat to the TFA teachers who came to our school - it was just the way it worked out.

So there is a perception problem out there that TFA is above and better ? After saying all of that I think it boils down to teacher retention and making all teachers feel appreciated? I am not sure that expanding TFA will fix that problem here, most likely exacerbate it.

@Artie -
I've got to agree with your point 4. From a parent's perspective my kid's teachers can be classified in a lot of different ways: experienced or inexperienced, engaged & energetic or not, male or female...TFA or not TFA, certified or not certified - these are not classifications that comes across (and yes we've been in Title I schools).

I hate to be redundant in my posts, but from the outside you're all teachers to me - and I want my kids to have 100% excellent teachers every year and at every school they go to. Do I expect that to be reality? No, but that should be the goal as far as I'm concerned. Get them from better teacher retention or from more high quality new hires - it's all the same from my viewpoint.

For all the naysayers, here's a thought: What would our school system be like if Teach for America didn't operate here? What if TFA didn't exist at all?

A parent definitely brings up a good point, which I'll come back to in a minute...

A lot of the criticisms leveled against TFA in this thread have been about TFA teachers "using" the "experience" as a "stepping stone" to do other things. From the outside perspective of society, I think that another way to look at this is that many people will be become doctors and lawyers and politicians and (shudder!) investment bankers...isn't it better for these community leaders to have had first hand-experience of teaching in urban or rural school districts? When looking at the financial world only, I'd rather have a fleet of investment bankers who know something about urban education than a fleet of investment bankers who went straight from undergrad to Wall Street.

But of course, as InsideEd bloggers, we're not looking at it from the perspective of the financial world, we're looking at it from the education world, so let's address some things:

1. Although I strongly disagree, I definitely understand why traditionally certified teachers like Tim and A Former Teacher may feel that TFA "degrades" the traditional teacher profession. To this I would say that I don't think a single TFA member came out of their teaching experience having less respect for the teaching profession. Any "degradation" that's occurring is in the minds of outsiders, not TFA corps members. If anything, I think that by being a high-profile, "prestigious" organization, it's shining a light on how hard our country's urban and rural educators work and how talented they need to be in order to be successful.

2. It's absolutely essential that we separate our argument into two important pieces: A) Are TFA teachers good teachers? and B) The issue of teacher retention

A) Studies have shown...blah, blah, blah....whatever, read them for yourselves. I think that more telling is that even on this thread, which naturally has its share of TFA detractors, people aren't saying that TFA teachers as a whole are bad teachers. Tim says they're "hard working, dedicated, and sometimes insane." A Former Teacher has taught with a mix of outstanding TFA teachers as well as some duds. Brandon points out that the TFA teachers he knew left teaching, but doesn't say anything about how they were as teachers while they taught....my point is that no one's claiming that it's likely that a first or second year teacher - TFA or otherwise - will be as good as a veteran teacher, but comparing TFA first years to other first years, no one has used this opportunity (so far...i'm sure i'm opening up the floodgates here) to say that TFA teachers as a whole are unprepared and shouldn't be in the classroom in the first place. Of course, sometimes people come in and teaching isn't for them. No one can know for sure until they're in that classroom if they can hack it. But that happens to traditionally certified teachers, too.

B) Now I finally (!) come back to a parent's comment. Once a TFA teacher is in the classroom, all that matters if if they're successful. Parents and students don't care how they got there, all that matters is that they're good teachers. So now that we've got some good teachers who might develop into excellent veteran teachers, whose responsibility is it to keep them in the classroom? (A question Ummmm.... was asking about earlier). Does TFA have a responsibility to try to keep people in the classroom? I say no; TFA has the responsibility to bring in the best possible candidates and train them to be as good as possible. The responsibility for teacher retention is on the school, the principal and the district. The principal needs to make sure the school is a supportive environment for staff members (of course the principal should be doing this anyway) and the district needs to make sure that there are opportunities for teachers to grow and develop intellectually and professionally.

3. It doesn't make sense for TFA or any alternative certification program to only recruit people who are committed to becoming career teachers. Those people are finding avenues to become teachers anyway and hopefully, somehow, excellent traditionally certified teachers are being encouraged to pursue jobs in urban districts like Baltimore. TFA, on the other hand, is bringing people to education who might never have thought they'd end up in a classroom or a school district. As a high school senior I wasn't interested in applying to a teaching college, as an undergrad I had no interest in taking education classes and even as a senior accepting my TFA placement I never could have predicted how my life would turn out, but here I am, finishing my 4th year of teaching in Baltimore City Public Schools. TFA is bringing people into education who wouldn't have come otherwise. So long as they're successful in the classroom, is that a bad thing?

The idea of TFA is great, they have produced some great teachers. TFA has also produced "teachers" that better themselves at the expense of our students. These "teachers" work in the system for 2 years, then pad their resume and move on to bigger and better things. If educational reform is truly the goal of TFA, then the use of BCPS as a career stepping stone needs to stop. It is a complete mockery to dedicated veteran teachers that people "put their time in" and look to other professions for self betterment. To be a truly effective teacher and an instrument of reform, educators need to make a dedicated, full time commitment. 2 year teaching commitments are not effective, in fact they are damaging to our students. Again, TFA as an organization is not the problem. The concept of bringing intelligent college students to teach in BCPS is a strong idea. We just need committed teachers, not people who will leave the profession and comment from the outside looking in.

@ City Educator (and others)

Resume padding, "bigger and better things," stepping stones...at some point, these terms are going to have to be explained. If someone thinks that helping students pass the HSA, staff after school programs, call 5 parents every night, coach debate, write college recommendations and get a masters degree is padding their resume then the world needs more resume-padders!

City Educator, I have a direct question for you: have you encountered TFA teachers who have not put forth effort, have slacked off, or have not cared about the achievements of their students? Please, without naming names, explain the circumstances. Teachers "using" BCPS for their own personal gain is only a negative if they're bad teachers. Has that been your experience with TFA teachers?

You're right, we need many more excellent veteran teachers in the system, but we also need many more professionals in all walks of life who know the challenges and hardships of urban education firsthand. Turning 2nd year teachers into career teachers is neither the goal, nor the responsibility of TFA and it shouldn't be.

Bill: "In fact, corps members are strongly encouraged to engage veteran teachers to learn from them and their more rich experiences."

Look at famous TFA alum Michelle Rhee. She's pretty consistent in sending the message that a lot of veteran teachers are no good. Always bragging about how great she did in her 2 years in Baltimore only to watch her hard work ruined when the kids went on to the next teacher. Posing on the cover of Newsweek with a broom. Doesn't exactly send the message that she values their experience

I knew when the TFA article was published that a flurry of discussions would result. Frankly, I think you are either a TFA believer or you aren't although I must admit that I have thought alot about the pro's of the TFA arguments. BCPS certainly can't keep doing what it has been doing!

I am wondering what the role of traditional schools of education is in light of the TFA philosophy? Forget about numbers for a minute. If AAA and others believe that TFA is the ideological way to go then why aren't Hopkins, Towson, Coppin, Morgan, NDM, Loyola and others modeling their program on TFA. Can any of these colleges speak to this?

I am traditionally trained and have always believed I would be a better teacher and a more well educated person if my BS had been more liberal arts and perhaps one year of the actual "teacher ed" courses. Are traditional colleges considering any major changes? I also believe we put ridiculous barriers in the way of content area teachers(ex. math,librarians,languages)who may or may not need any ed courses and would make great teachers. Many of the certification issues for people with other degrees or are changing careers is about keeping colleges in business.

I find it interesting that BCPS spent huge amounts of tuition reimbursment money on colleges/programs that they don't seemingly approve of. I know many people who have received other certifications paid for mostly by the city that they have not even used except for certification credits.

Reform needs to be systemic and be given a chance to work. Anyone who has been in BCPS for very long kows that we have been through just about every reform possible and are still struggling. Whatever AAA tries, I hope we actualy give it a chance to work.

Great thread... I enjoy reading all the insightful comments and the varied opinions here.

Is having more teachers a bad thing if they aren't from Baltimore and if they don't promise to stay here teaching for a lifetime ? Is it an insult to the "profession teachers" if these TFA people teach at their schools ?

I don't know...

What I do know is that a school system that was designed at the turn of the century, and that seems to be geared more towards producing factor workers than educated adults, is a school system that's not meeting today's needs.

Teachers fight over who should be judged to be a real teacher, and where they should live, and what they get paid, and violence or remedies for it, politics and testing schedules... about anything but learning. Students are processed by a system that ultimately discourages real learning and replaces it with obedience training, test taking, and a curriculum based on the lowest common denominators.

It's a mess, everyone agrees that it's failing, yet we each hang on to a different part of the deck of the Titanic, hoping that somehow we can repair the ship, or at least we can stay afloat and save a few good kids. Perhaps it's time to abandon the teaching paradigm invented by Henry Ford, and embrace the 21st century.

Maybe TFA is different, and I understand that some people take issue with it, but you have to ask the one question that really matters: Does it provide a benefit to the education experience ? Are the kids getting a better education for it ?

Changes to the school system are a good thing, changing what it means to be a good teacher is a good thing, and changing what it means to get an education in a public school is a good thing, and like it or not, change is coming.

TFA's first contract in Baltimore was in 1992.

Is there any available evidence that TFA in that time has altered the fundamental social inequality or social mobility in Baltimore?

Where, specifically, has a TFA member initiated, or realized a diminution of the racial, class, or 'opportunity gap' of a single baltimore city human being?

when did Wendy kopp or TFA central provide advocacy for Thornton Funding? Or national Legislation for school desegregation?

What TFA member lives in Latrobe Homes? Or at Clifton Park?

Can an advocate of TFA provide an analysis of how TFA wants to change poverty rather than change the poor?

Thanks in advance for all your information.

Really enjoying the discussion. I certainly agree with a number of the non-TFA supporters on several points made. @Tim, @City Educator, @A Former Teacher - among others - I hope you continue to put your voice forward because those of us who are trying to be impartial certainly are biased. It's extremely important for "us" (those supportive of TFA) to hear and listen and embrace the criticisms of the organization. You make (mostly) valid points (of course I can't agree with everything!), and though we see it differently, we're all moving to the same end-point and it's a discussion about the means to get there. Regardless of the disagreement along the way, the fact that we're discussing ways to most benefit children who deserve better gives more air time to an important issue that needs as many perspectives as possible.

@Simon, I really appreciate your breaking down of the issues and slicing through the arguments to develop a meaningful platform for discussion. Shaping the message and discussion is critical to allowing productive conversation. Are you sure you're not the one in law school???

@Melody. There are countless examples of current corps members and alums who completely defy Michelle Rhee's early missteps. Again, one does not represent thousands, although for good or for ill her potential successes (or failures) will reflect highly on TFA. Additionally, Chancellor Rhee has toned down that early message exceedingly, and I believe it's because she realized that she was not embracing a positive approach to reform. Here are other examples of people in lots of fields (including Michelle Rhee) that go to my point that alumni are working in many areas to address the educational achievement gap: http://www.teachforamerica.org/alumni/index.htm. This goes to Simon and Tim's point of contention, if you just view it from the lens of "resume-building" then we have to clarify the terms. What if I told you that the pro bono coordinator of one of the best law firms in the country is a TFA alum, and he's turned incredible amounts of free legal resources towards ed equity causes? Had he not been a part of TFA and taught for 2 years he has said that there's little chance that his life would be dedicated towards shifting a multi-national law firm's attention towards education-based priorities.

If the argument strictly revolves around whether TFA succeeds at producing long-term teachers, TFA loses, every time. But, and this is a huge but, that is not the organization's mission. The mission is to affect a national problem where the foundation is built in early years. Subsequent years in the classroom, in the policy world, in politics, in hospitals, in labs, in investment banks, in corporations, etc are shaped and motivated by the myriad of learned experienced from a corps member's early-on, tangible experience. Many TFA corps members would never have had the teaching experience had the organization not existed. For nearly all of them, the experience changed their lives (as it does for most teachers). Because of this experience, some are entering careers that they likely would have without TFA with a very different outlook into their future roles. If people don't find value in this, then you'll never appreciate TFA, nor its mission. That's fine, there will never be 100% agreement. However, if non-TFA'ers do appreciate this, and are willing to believe that students' losses from some TFA'ers leaving after their commitment is less than the gains acquired during the years spent in a TFA'ers classroom, then the organization is value-added. In the short-term kids benefit from motivated (and often insane) teachers who may not have been there otherwise. In the long-term, motivated people with actual (albeit limited) experience in urban and rural classrooms are helping to shape policy with a foundation that rests in actual work in the environments they're attempting to support.

Yes, TFA wants people to be successful should they leave the classroom. Why? Because the more successful they are in the legal world, medicine, business, banking, etc. the more likely they'll have access to the tools and resources needed to affect the educational achievement gap and break down the silos of ed reform.

Finally, see you all at the meetup very shortly!

And for some fun afternoon viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v-ax6eWlXU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8nB__LvGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AYA4h1rNN0

Sheesh - I missed the meet-up but feel like I was there, now that I've read all the way down this thread. Thanks to all who've expressed themselves so passionately and eloquently, for those words represent, to me at least, just two of the things that've been missing in the big debate about WHO should be teaching our kids.

Passion.
Eloquence.
Commitment.
Curiosity.
Enthusiasm.
Empathy.
Logic.
Good humor.
Persistence.
Fairness.

These are only some of the qualities my own children's best teachers have had. Whether those teachers were graduates of Harvard University or Harford Community College has not mattered as much to me as whether they have cared enough to know my son and daughters for the individual learners and people they are. They are the ones who stretched my kids beyond any limit my husband or I might’ve been able to stretch them, had we chosen to keep them at home and school them ourselves.

How do we pick who the BEST teachers are anyway?

Is it the teacher who owns enough understanding of child development to recognize the difference between a simple developmental lag and a serious learning disability?

Or is it the one who cares enough to stay until play practice is over at 4:30pm so that my daughter might ask the two questions she didn't have time to ask because the earlier period had ended and her next period teacher had no tolerance for tardiness to his class?

Or perhaps it is the teacher who owns the pedagogical skills needed to truly explain exponential functions when the 11th grader is on the verge of tears due to not understanding the homework?

Or is the best teacher the one who has the intellectual chops to find a way to challenge the student who’s finished the sylabbus reading halfway through the semester, who scores 100% on every quiz, and who drops out of discussion due to boredom and frustration with the seemingly low-level thinking skills of classmates and teacher?

I’m not sure if there is any one answer to my question. But there is clearly one element all my scenarios have in common:

Experience. Bag of tricks. The wisdom of years…

However you describe it, the best teachers have been at it long enough to know that no two children are alike and that “one size fits all” is, well… no other way to say it: crap.

And how long is “long enough?” I can’t say, for it varies according to the individual teacher. But all of us in the profession know – can maybe even remember that day – when we first realized “Hey! I know what I’m doing. I may still fall on my face later today, but I know where the resources to draw from are so that I’ll come into the classroom tomorrow, smarter and stronger, thanks to what just happened to me.”

I cannot side with TFA, or BCTR, or trad’l ed schools or WHATEVER! as the be all and end all where teacher training is concerned. Because I know that, if we are truly considering what is best for children (and to do that, I always consider my own kids and think about my baseline expectations for THEIR teachers), then we need to find a way to professionalize and personalize and REVOLUTIONIZE the teaching experience so that the BEST candidates choose to stick around, to soak up all there is to learn from their more learned colleagues and – here’s the very best part – to eventually pass on, to those less experienced than they, the many hard-earned lessons from each teaching day.

Shame on any principal who allows a class system of any sort to fester among his or her faculty! And shame on a school power structure that allows a principal like that to reign supreme.

Schools must be active and engaging places of learning not just for kids but for adults also. To me, the challenge facing principals with TFA’ers or any other young teachers on staff is this: how to keep him/her with me beyond the two year commitment? How to integrate my young and “less young” () staff so that the best of both of those worlds combine for the better of our students? How to ensure that when my teachers AND my kids walk in the door, they are happy to be here?

Some may see my questions as Pollyanna-ish. I hope not. As I read this thread in one fell swoop it was clear to me that many post-ers are working in miserable surroundings and are not viewing the labor of teaching for what I believe it to be no matter where you teach: sacred work. To test whether I’m right about this, imagine the face of the teacher who most profoundly affected you in your life. You’ll see what I mean about what’s missing in our schools that WE MUST PUT BACK.

This isn't really about TFA, but rather about this silly notion that it's an insult to someone's profession to have people leave via promotion or to find something else to do.

As a parent, I want a good educator. I don't care whether or not they're TFA. My kid's teacher is a "traditional" teacher, and a lifer. And she is tremendous.

But my experience is that teachers who have stayed in the classroom for 20-30 years are rarely of high quality.

And why would they be? Sure, there will be a small percentage of folks who just love it, and want to stay. Like my kid's teacher.

But why shouldn't teachers aspire to more when almost every other profession does? Most of the best cops become detectives, or rise in the ranks. Entry level retail people rise to become managers and then corporate. It only makes sense that the best teachers will also rise.

This is especially true in today's much more mobile society.

In my experience, the best teachers have been teaching for at least a few years. But I've rarely seen good teachers who have been in the classroom for more than 15 years.

Also, Harrington:

The BTU did next to nothing for Thornton funding either. If it wasn't for the MSTA (the state teacher's union, not at all affiliated with Baltimore teachers), Thornton would not have been passed.

I am not sure it is possible to turn the ship, but I wonder if this conversation is possible without generalizations (i.e. because Michelle Rhee wants to rid DCPS of some ineffective teachers, it means she doesn't value any veteran teachers - come on now) and anecdotes (I know a TFA teacher who went to law school after 2 years. Really? Do you know the TFA teacher who has been in the classroom for over 10 years because I do)? I am going to try...

To address the point of those who would prefer recruiting "career" teachers, BCPS tried (and continues to try) to do this for years and was always understaffed. There were years when the schools would start with hundreds of vacancies, and they had to resort to hiring just about anyone. At least with TFA, there is a very rigorous screening process, and a clear mission focused on educational equity - which I would take any day over someone off the street just looking for a job.

So while I don't think anyone would say TFA is The Answer, there is no doubt in my mind that the students in Baltimore are better for TFA having been here for the past 17 years.

And per M. Harrington's questions (which I do wish were more sincere - although it is hard to tell with blog posts), TFA alum in Baltimore are committed to all of the things you ask about. I am not sure any list would satisfy, but I'll give you the link to an article on YOURS - an organization to empower high school students (http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=16236) which was founded by a TFA Baltimore alum. And one to the Urban Leadership Institute, which was co-founded by a TFA Baltimore alum (http://www.urbanyouth.org/staff_lshields.htm). These are just two examples. There are more and it does a disservice to all the other TFA alum in Baltimore who are working on issues of equity, poverty and education to imply that they aren't. I'd love an example of a group or individual you do feel has "has altered the fundamental social inequality or social mobility in Baltimore?" That's a lot to lay at the doorstep of any one organization or person. We have to start being more unified with this - TFA and non-TFA alike.

Bill and Simon,

I am sure that it feels that we are attacking an old friend but this discussion is highlighting major issues for teachers.

Teacher retention is a huge issue. Teachers will not want to stay if the environment they have to work in is poor.

Those that have chosen teaching as a long term career path and vocation should and do feel that there choice is somehow diminished when the best and the brightest are brought in to save the day and then leave to bring resources back to the fight. I know that it is only semantics but it sets up an us vs. them. It leaves those that stay in the tradition with a hint of "Oh you just weren't good enough to do anything else... you stay and teach and I am going to fix the broken education system."

I think teachers should govern themselves just as lawyers do with their bar associations and do Dr. with the medical boards. It has long been my contention that if teachers were able to decide who could hold the title of teacher that the quality of teachers would improve dramatically. I believe that we throw the term teacher around much to liberally in the City Schools, when a parent volunteer with a GED acts as a substitute, he or she is called a teacher, when a non instructional para is called a teacher simply because they interact with children we diminished all Highly Qualified teachers weather they be TFA or not. I believe that teachers should be able to determine who is a good teacher and poor teacher and act accordingly - why we have allowed unions and school boards to decide this for so long is beyond me.

So I think really this argument is not about TFA but rather the role and respect that society as a whole has for teachers.

This topic has hit a nerve for me - I apologize in advance for my ramblings.

Tim,

I also teach at a large, zoned school, and I find fault with your criticisms of TFA. In my experience, it is the TFA teachers who work incredibly hard on a daily basis - yes, to the point of the "insanity" you cited. The TFA teachers at my school are professionals in every sense of the word, have meaningful lessons planned for each instructional day, motivate students to work hard and celebrate their academic achievements. Additionally, I have seen other teachers who merely hand out packets of work and sit at their computer for 90 minutes. I have seen teachers who put in the least amount of work possible while TFA teachers often run themselves into the ground working for our kids. I have seen the low expectations at my school totally eat away at any positive culture that might have been established.
Your facts are correct about TFA retention; however, at least those teachers actually try to TEACH for the two years they are in the classroom, which is more than I can say for other people.

I have lurked on these thought-provoking and inspiring Ed blogs for a few months and enjoy reading the healthy debate that goes on here. One thing that is clear is that so many people here want better education for kids in Baltimore.

I felt compelled to respond even before Bill referenced me in his post because I felt that there were some misconceptions that I could help address. In full-disclosure, I am a 2005 TFA alumnus, taught for 2 years at Calverton, 1 year at KIPP: Ujima Village Academy, and worked for 2 summers at the Philadelphia Summer Institute where Baltimore TFA teachers receive their summer training. Currently, I design student, teacher, and staff curriculum for the Los Angeles Institute. Though I moved to Philadelphia this last year, I will be returning to Baltimore in August, partly because Baltimore and all of its strengths and areas for change are very near to my heart and I feel a connection to the city, especially its students, and partly because my girlfriend will be teaching at the new KIPP elementary school, KIPP: Harmony. (Can TFA be counted for bringing a new teacher to the system ).

Bill did a very good job responding to some of the issues raised. And so did Simon. (I wrote this response on the plane, before a flurry of new posts were added.) I hope to provide additional perspective, and elaborate when appropriate.

First, Teach For America is a young organization, that while initially successful and becoming more popular, realizes it is still learning and growing in its ability to recruit, train, and support beginning teachers. Many of the issues that you raised, Tim, are issues that we acknowledge are problems we have seen displayed by some corps members at some schools in some regions. (I say we speaking as an employee of the organization, not in a divisive TFA vs Everyone Else manner.) In acknowledging the limitations of our own perspectives (everyone posting), none of us can speak for what happens at every school in Baltimore city (except for maybe the Good Doctor/ CEO) and an experience we have had, be it with a TFA teacher, a traditionally credentialed teacher, a veteran teacher, does not speak for all who fit in to those categories. I think it is a good place in which to ground ourselves.

Second, Teach For America's mission has 2 goals for each of its corps members: one, to provide excellent education to each of their students for the two years they are a TFA corps member; two, to allow that experience influence what they do for the remainder of their lives. The hope is that some will go on to be lifelong teachers and this is supported and encouraged. Some will become community activists or organizers and create better opportunities for the communities affected by educational inequity. Some will become school leaders or work in education in other ways. (While I miss being in the classroom, I know that my work helps prepare new teachers to be effective for their students.) Some will certainly become doctors and lawyers and businesspersons. The hope is that those professionals see the need to provide free care or pro-bono work for low-income communities and they set up ways to do so, knowing that the impacts of poverty are great and the access to services necessary to create a level playing field is unequal. Some are encouraged to run for office or support political campaigns and policy reform efforts in a variety of ways. The bottom-line is that the impacts of poverty are so great that giving every kid a teacher who is phenomenal might not be enough: health care, housing, scholarship opportunities, access to loans at reasonable interest rates are all issues that are impacted by poverty and in some way impact educational opportunity and need to be addressed.

That being said, as a result of TFA realizing how necessary the second part of the mission was to closing the achievement gap, a considerable amount of effort has gone there over the past few years. The organization has been received feedback that the teachers who remain in the classroom need more support and that is going to be addressed over the coming years.

Nowhere in Teach For America’s Institute curriculum are corps members instructed to “believe that veteran teachers subscribe to teachers lounge negativity and don’t really care about children.” In fact, the opposite is true. Corps members are given instruction about the benefits veteran teachers can bring to their teaching experiences and how to build positive relationships with every one at their schools. Corps members should leave Institute believing that building positive relationships with the teachers and staff at their school can benefit their students and their development as teachers. Now, does every teacher walk away believing that? I can’t say. Just as not every student masters an objective in a lesson the first time you teach it, there is the potential that not all corps members will think this leaving Institute. That is definitely a problem, but corps members are not instructed to believe veteran teachers don’t care about their students.

Teach For America is very data-driven. I won’t dispute that, nor would I want to. Bill hits most of the key points around why data is important to being a successful teacher. Maybe “data” has a potentially negative connotation for some; think of it as a way of measuring student progress. I can say that in addition to Bill’s points, I have seen the connection between data and student results. By tracking my students’ performances on daily objectives, I was able to predict pretty accurately how well they would do on the MSA. It guided me in who I gave more help to, what objectives I re-taught, how I planned. When used correctly, data is very informative to guiding instruction of objectives to retention.

That being said, not all teachers—TFA or other—use data correctly. Some might not have rigorous enough assessments to track, others might not know how to use it to adjust their long-term plans, others might feel the need to fabricate it. But, TFA tries to coach its corps members in how to use this data effectively and works incredibly hard to validate the data of its corps members. One of the buckets that data can fall into is “Undefined.” This means that the organization believes that data is in someway unreliable—assessment quality, fabrication, not enough students took a certain assessment, etc. Data thought to be undefined is not used. TFA realizes the importance of having valid data and has put great emphasis on 1) coaching corps members on how to get data that is a valid representation of student performance, and 2) throwing out data that they believe isn’t valid or could possibly be suspected of not being valid. This has been a concentrated effort of the organization in the past few years.

I think a side point was made that TFA being data-driven and hard on its first year teachers drives them out of the classroom. I would say that from experience I don’t think this is true. There may be instances that you know of of corps members quitting because TFA had too high of expectations for them. TFA tries very hard to support corps members in their teaching—the program director role is designed to do this. That doesn’t mean they sugar coat the realities of educational inequity. We know this is hard work. It is supposed to be hard. If it wasn’t hard, if there was a silver bullet to closing the achievement gap, well, I think the gap would be closed by now, and some people would be very rich. TFA is data-driven because they know data-driven instruction is positively correlated to student achievement. TFA has high expectations of its corps members because they are teaching students who deserve excellent education immediately. To lower expectations would be like saying the students you are teaching now deserve less of an education than the ones you will teach next year, and so on. Teach For America believes its Institute instruction, its regional support, and its university partnerships provide corps members with the tools to be effective immediately when corps members meet or exceed the expectations set for them (and research supports this).

I too wrote too much. But please respond. This debate is worth having. While I am very excited by the mutual commitment by Baltimore city and Teach For America and the potential that it creates, I don’t believe Teach For America is the end all be all to solving the educational problems of a city about which I care very deeply. A city I wouldn’t have come to if not for my being able to meet the strict qualification requirements of Maryland, to get back to the original post. (I was slated to teach in DC, but because I met MD requirements and so many didn’t, I was placed in Baltimore. So glad it happened, though I think the requirements should be loosened a bit.)

Thanks for reading.

Post @ Teach for America

Who certified that Teach for America is a win-win- for the BCPSS. The other side of the present evidence and facts that needs to be revealed is that no one seems to want to recognize is the essentials for the actual background issue for the history of questionable teacher retention rate of the Teach for America candidates that actual stay in Baltimore City School System. "Not always do they all full fill the mandatory requirement time period for a couple of years to stay teaching within the school system, they can at any time just pick up and leave with out notice their agreed upon commitment made to Baltimore City School/Teach for America for a better career opportunity if it suits them." Then the school system has to secure a contracted debt collection service in order to collect back on the paid monetary investment created by the breach in contract which is a actual current action procurement activity item happening right now within the Baltimore City School System operations which means more budget money going out the door away from the classroom and the Great Schools/Great Kids PR campaign. Is teach for America the end all to be all? No it is only an alternative option not the total solution folks.

Dr. Alonso's willingness to work with a program like TFA and try to increase its ranks in the city only solidifies the belief that ideological and pedagogical compatibility among Alonso and TFA is paramount over long-term teacher retention.

Recognizing that teacher retention is a chronic issue that affects us (and always will) while simultaneously recognizing that there are always hordes of young, idealistic and willing teachers from TFA, you sort of have a perfect storm. Cycling in hundreds of those young, fresh teachers who are full of spirit and verve, while paying them less and having them come committed to the classroom (even in the short-term) essentially circumvents teacher retention issues. Retention almost becomes a moot point. And if some of them stay, its a bonus. If not, there are more lined up out the door.

You find this same model - contribute X years and we'll give something to you - across most segments of public service in America.

Don't have money to get an undergrad degree? Spend X years in the military and they'll give you training and send you to college when you're done for free.

Did you get your undergrad degree in some kind of engineering? Work for NSA for 4 years and they'll give you a grad degree - from Carnegie Mellon even!

The sad fact is that in order to engage [a large number of] today's Americans in public service, these bribes are the norm. We have teenagers signing up to go to war in order to get a college education - now there's a hell of a stepping stone for you.

Until Americans begin to believe in the benefit of public service and learn to be satisfied with the pride their employment brings rather than what their paycheck buys these programs are going to exist. That's not an evil thing - at least these positions are being filled - but it is a very sad truth.

TFA is one program among many with the faults being decried here. The answer is simple but difficult - TFA's problems will solve themselves when Americans stop doing things for the money and start doing them for the good of our citizens.

@Beth -

HEAR HEAR!!!!!!!!

Incredible post!

Your post reminded me of a very special advertisement. On the NYC subways, the NY Teaching Fellows program has an advertisement that reads:

"You remember your first grade teacher's name. Who will remember yours?"

Teaching IS sacred work. And beyond any certifications or college names, you just gotta have "it" - that indescribable zeal mixed with the adjectives you used in your post, that allows you to effectively reach your kids.

THANKS for an awesome post!

Still enjoying the exchange. I'm going to provide some resources for @M. Harrington:

- Impact of TFA Baltimore, detailed analysis can be found here: http://www.teachforamerica.org/about/regions/baltimore.htm#corps_impact . If you want a further breakdown, email the Executive Director, Omari Todd, at Omari.Todd@teachforamerica.org. He can provide with pretty much any statistic you could want (and a place to send your donation!).

- Opportunity gap issue. I think it's happening in many, many classrooms across Baltimore. Education provides opportunity. The statistics of educational achievement and social class mobility are overwhelming and if you want me to link you to numerous reports, just let me know. The TFA mission embraces the concept that education activates choices and options. With options and choices, people have a greater ability to leverage their own potential.

- Thornton. That's not TFA national's job, certainly not Wendy Kopp's. However, many, many, many TFA-Baltimore alums have been incredibly invested in the Thornton issue. Reference Shannen Coleman, '02 alum who is now employed by ChildFirst. With BUILD, Shannen helped to oversee the building of the Educational Equity Coalition for Baltimore City ed stakeholders. This group was instrumental in fighting cuts to Thronton. Also reference Peter Kannam, ED of New Leaders for Maryland. Not only is he fighting to get great principals into Baltimore City Schools, he has been a strong public advocate for equitable educational funding. Same goes for many, many other alums. So, no, Wendy isn't doing much with Thornton, but lots and lots of TFA-Baltimore alums are. And that's way more important.

- Public housing corps members. Now in its 15th year in Baltimore, TFA is starting to see its first applicants/corps members who were first taught by TFA teachers. In fact, we recently had a corps member speak to alums who applied for the organization because of the impact of her teacher. I don't know her exact living situation, but she referenced the difficult conditions in which she grew up. As more individuals such as the one referenced become corps members, the more we'll see an increase in diversity at all levels, racial, socioeconomic, etc. Nevertheless, I think setting the qualification bar at, "Living in Latrobe Homes" serves as a false dichotomy for determining who is and who is not qualified to teach students in Baltimore City.

- "Change poverty." This is way too broad to address specifically. In earlier posts I've referenced the concept that the educational achievement gap encompasses way more than the workings within school buildings alone. It includes politics, healthcare, business, banking, science, community work, etc. The whole point of TFA is that all of these sectors must come together to address an issue that touches all facets of urban and rural poverty. With a more pointed question, I may be able to provide a more tangible answer.

I hope that helps a bit.

@bill

Thank you for the information.

There are many individual members of TFA whose vision of social justice and equity in America is more capacious than that represented by the institutional apparatus of Teach For America---the other America---and the millions of public tax and philanthropic dollars (and growing political capital) that that apparatus commands. They are to be congratulated. Some of them are even very good teachers.

The citation of TFA’s data as an argument for the reduction of social inequality is an unsupported syllogism compounded by the vagueness of the meaning of “impact.” One could cite data to the contrary---even on teaching. cf., Linda Darling-Hammond---but particularly about social mobility and opportunity in the lives Baltimore city students.

Similarly, citing general correlation studies between education and social class mobility is a fallacious claim to make specifically for the benefits of TFA. Yet even if we leave that aside for a second one can easily point to evidence that in America today---especially in hyper-segregated urban communities, parent’s income is a greater predictor of generational social class mobility that educational attainment (not even to mention HSA pass rates!).

Why is advocacy for Thornton (or Bradford v MSDE) not TFA national’s job? It seems the national organization wants to have it both ways: to claim the imprimatur of an ideologically acceptable movement for broad social change that has significant power and influence (comparatively) and at same time says its only mission is placing teachers in classrooms.

Perhaps Latrobe is too high a bar, but surely undefined “difficult conditions” by an anomalous (token?) member is too low a bar. How about living a block from North Avenue along its entire length?

Is changing poverty too broad? Perhaps. But so too was the first movement against school segregation. So too was the civil rights movement, or even a previous generations “war on poverty.”

TFA represents a hope we have: that several generations into the structural immiseration of urban, mostly minority citizens we don’t really need to discuss, work for, advocate, legislate, preach about the redistribution of wealth, goods, services and hope. Rather it is gumption, boot straps, work hard, be nice that will get us there. And we can even do real well for ourselves at the same time. To the extent that TFA represents and institutionalizes the latter ideology it perversely becomes complicit in the maintenance of the status quo.

Honestly, thanks for the information.

I think the major issue with TFA is RETENTION, RETENTION, RETENTION, RETENTION are the TFA teachers good yes, but it takes more than 2yrs to learn the craft and be effective. I totally understand the trad teachers who feel TFA's are not vested in teaching coz they leave after 2 yrs. I'm a 7 year trad teacher, and I only know of 2 TFA teachers who have taught as long. I object to the notion that TFA is the end all be all for urban education.

Quality and retention are two different issues and quality is way more important. I think the teacher who works extremely hard and gets results for two years and then leaves is much less guilty of "using" students for personal gain than those who stay and collect a paycheck for years and years without doing their job well. The teaching profession is degraded by the tenure of ineffective teachers, not by new teachers who show that if you work your ass off, you actually can impact outcomes for students.

Just to make that point, I accepted the incorrect premise that most or all TFA teachers complete two years of service and then move on.

By the way, M. Harrington, your book led me to become a teacher. ;-)

@Simon-

Let me clarify, some of the best and brightest teachers have come from TFA. Like I tried to articulate but apparently failed to, TFA as an organization is a great concept. It is people who do not take teaching seriously that drag down the system and make a mockery of our profession. TFA trains and sets teachers up for success in the classroom, but teacher retention now needs to be the absolute priority of TFA. Only with dedicated teachers can true reform take place, not 2 year committers who move on to policy making.

@ City Educator

We definitely agree on some important points, for sure. We agree that teacher retention and building a strong new group of veteran teachers is necessary for "true reform" to take place. However, I also believe that retaining good teachers is not sufficient for the reform needed and we'll need advances in many areas of the educational system (and society) in order for these reforms to truly take hold. (You may believe this, too, in fact.) I think that TFA does a great job of bringing talented, driven people into this sytem-wide fight.

Where we clearly disagree, however, is over whose responsibility it is to retain excellent teachers. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it doesn't make sense for an alternative certification program to recruit people committed to becoming career teachers. Once TFA (or anyone else) has brought teachers to the classroom and given them sufficient training and professional development, the onus is on the principals and the districts to keep good teachers there. Smart, talented people - be they alt cert OR trad cert teachers - won't stay at a job where they don't feel challenged, supported, stimulated and safe or if they don't see room for growth. TFA isn't responsible for making professional development in the district worthwhile or providing exciting opportunities for teachers to collaborate or making sure that a school is a safe working environment...that's the principals/district's job. No 25 year old will stay in teaching if they think that this is as good as it's going to get.

Lee said, "Some will become school leaders or work in education in other ways. (While I miss being in the classroom, I know that my work helps prepare new teachers to be effective for their students.)"

That must be a joke, right?

You believe that your three years helps you prepare people for a environment that by all indications - YOU couldn't handle?

I am serious. Everyone on earth knows that is a joke.

You miss this life? than come back, We all agree we need more people like you in the classroom.

I point my finger at you , and Bill. You dont get a free pass to spend a couple years teaching and than start riding high at North Ave or TFA L.A. or whatever.

I am NOT buying it. I hope you keep up the "good" fight from an air conditioned office and talk in terms of closing an acheivement gap that you yourself turned your back on.

I appologize for being rash, but this is truly the point I have been trying to make since post one, and you made it for me.

Good luck in your work, Tim. We need more people like you fighting the good fight.

@ City Educator

I submitted a longer comment here, but somehow it didn't get posted. I'll summarize my point: We definitely agree that teacher retention is an important issue that needs to be addressed and increasing the number of excellent, dedicated veteran teachers is a necessary condition for "true reform." However, I also believe this is not a sufficient condition and that we need reformers at all levels of the educational system from principal to curriculum writers up through the CEO and policy makers. Maybe you believe this, too? Where we disagree, however, is whose responsibility it is to retain these teachers; I don't think that's the job of TFA...I think TFA has the responsibility to bring in the best candidates and train them as well as possible and after that it's up to the principals and the district to keep excellent teachers in the classroom. I'd be interested to hear your take on that, as well as my next post which will be directed @ Tim

@ Tim

I have a lot of problems with your post, so I really needed to calm down after reading it so I could focus on just a few things and try to make this a productive comment rather than an InsideEd flame war....

Tim, I think that you and other teachers have really worked yourself into a Catch-22: on the one hand, anyone who leaves the profession of teaching is labeled a deserter who's abandoned their students because they couldn't hack it. On the other hand, anyone without classroom experience lacks the authority to make policy or lead professional development or even comment on educational matters. My question is, when does it become OK to leave the classroom but still be able to comment with authority? How long do you have to teach before you can move on to something else without being a deserter? No one questions my commitment here because I'm still in the classroom for my fourth year. But what if this is my last year of teaching? Do I now lack commitment? What if I had taught for 5 years? or 10 years? or 35 years? Where's the cutoff?

The reason I was so angry at your post, Tim, was that you questioned the intentions and ability - and by extension, the integrity and validity - of people you have never met and know nothing about and I find this totally inappropriate. You want to question whether a 3-year teach can design and lead effective PD? Fine...I can't tell you how strongly I disagree with you but it's a valid point we can discuss here. But these personal attacks to make your point have no place in this important discussion.

Tim, hope you're not an English teacher...

Ref. THEN vs. THAN

It's hard to take a teacher's post seriously when it contains such elementary mistakes. You get benefit of the doubt for first mistake, but twice in same post?!?

TFA or not, teachers like Tim should be mindful of throwing the first stone...

Grammar Police, I will borrow a phrase from a few years back and say "you trifling" or the more frequently used "you petty" - But anyways, thanks for the quick reminder on the English language.

(do you capitalize English in this instance??? Now I am self conscious about my spelling and grammar. From this moment on I will have all posts on this blog spell checked, professionally edited, and reviewed prior to posting)

In all honesty, I think this is an important conversation we are having. I do not mean to be belittling or in any way condescending to people.

I do have expectations. I expect people that talk about whats going on in classrooms to be in classrooms.

This expectation may be ambitious or callous. I do not know.

Maybe this is a catch-22.

I cannot satisfactorily say how many years it takes to be certified to create new effective classroom teachers. I just find it humorous that people who have taught for 2-3 years take themselves seriously enough to write a blog about "raising expectations". More of an observation than a attack.

TFA serves a role in this system. I agree. It puts teachers in classrooms. I have mentored some of these teachers and they are very effective in the classroom and usually in their second year they rock out and their kids BENEFIT.

I am not a qualified mentor by the way. I just do it because people asked me to. I do not write a blog called "Preparing teachers for closing the achievement gap."

I believe the children of this city are amazing. They are observant, caring, and understanding.

They do not deserve to be talked about in numbers or be notches on peoples resumes. I can't stress this enough.

Using experiences with impoverished children as a 20 minute discussion during a job interview with a Fortune 500 company is distasteful at best. This is the root of my problem with TFA.

The organization has a disconnect with many teachers for this reason. I am a teacher. I want to teach. Its hard to come to grips with the fact that people see this as an "experience."

I do not want to post on this anymore.

I feel that it has run its course.

I hope I did not ruin the validity of this discussion or cause anyone panic attacks.

I hope everyone finishes the year strong, makes gains, and finds themselves happy in the next school year (where they are).

@grammar police -
I had stopped commenting on this thread because it is so clearly a teacher to teacher discussion, but I do have a request in terms of your comment. I spend a fair amount of time trying to check my spelling and grammar on my posts, but can we please not make perfect English a requirement for sharing ideas here? I would hope anybody would feel free to post and not worry about being ridiculed for errors when the idea of their post is clear. I do think too many grammatical errors can make the idea unclear, but I don't think that's the case in Tim's comments.

@a parent - I agree, why should we expect teachers to use basic grammar ? LOL.

Generally, on the internet, spelling and grammar don't count. I don't think the comment was directed at that fact in general, but more at the irony of a city school teacher making so many grammatical errors in his post about people's qualifications... hence it was definitely "on topic" and not random petty ridicule in this case.

...and I'm sorry Tim if this hurts your feelings, but your posts are difficult to read sometimes. That last one looked like something you would see on the Internet, not a note from a teacher. Judging by the timestamp, it was a Monday morning, and I know we all have Mondays like that :) That being said, I still look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on the school system. The last thing I want is a discussion over-run with North Avenue apologists and teachers willing to accept whatever gets thrown their way, and you are neither of those. Keep at it.

I'm a new teacher going the BCTR alternative route to certification. As was mentioned in an earlier thread, most BCTR track people are career changers. I spent years in the military. They paid for both my B.A. and my J.D., and I agree with Rebecca who stated "now there's a hell of a stepping stone".

I spent eleven years in the military, much of it teaching young soldiers. I was a substitute teacher during law school (yeah, I somehow found time to write briefs and grade papers) and also taught in a private school. I knew I loved teaching. However, I come from a family of veterans. All veterans of the military and all veteran teachers. My family was against my making a career of teaching - for all the reasons that have been recited on this thread - so it took me awhile to figure out that teaching is where my heart is and that my family would eventually accept that as well.

BCTR is a program for people like me. People, mostly with upper level degrees (my cohort has eight J.D.s and 2 Ph.Ds) or mid-career changers with a few younger folks with newly minted Bachelor's degrees. What we have in common is our committment to Baltimore, our driving desire to be effective classroom teachers, and our willingness to start our careers over again from the beginning in order to make a difference in our students lives and in our own lives.

I can't speak to the committment of TFA. I can't even guarantee that everyone from BCTR will stay committed, though it is a program geared towards long-term committment. Regardless of what program puts us in the classroom this fall, I don't think we have a chance of making a difference without your support, and the support of other veteran teachers and administrators.

I'm just a new recruit, but I want to be a "lifer", as the military puts it. Whoever you are out there, Traditional Track, TFA, or BCTR - those of us starting this fall need you to be the facilitator of our retention.

Thanks for allowing me to listen in on your fantastic thread.

Thank you newteacher for taking it right back where it needed to be in the first place-attracting and keeping teachers who are actually committed to children!

New teacher you should join us at Northwestern..... call my principal and interview. We don't have many openings but you sould committed.

This whole thread has gotten ridiculous! Either you want to do the job and you can do the job or goodbye! @New teacher has the right idea. All this TFA vs everyone else has set up a caste system not only in the schools but in central office. Many of us have multiple degrees from prestigious schools plus years of experience. Each individual chooses his/her jcareer path based on their their own life path. Why are we debating where we all begin? It is what we are actually doing every day that counts. Not our city, school, program, age, or anything else. The bottom line is, can you do the job and will you stick with it? Personally, I am weary of training, mentoring, etc teachers who are gone in three years or less. Don't care where they came from. Just stay if you are dedicated! Now, can we move on?

I was always happy to have TFA or any new, enthusiastic staff in my school, until the mentoring program was destroyed. Other states ( Delaware) mandate 5 years of mentoring for new teachers, but here in the Big "B", we don't seem to think it is important! Those mentors, both Blum and the part timers did a fabulous job keeping those 'newbies' on an even keel. We don't seem to learn from our mistakes.