I have heard similar complaints about the disruptions and danger caused to City Schools staff and students by the returning dropouts. Some-NOT ALL- of these students are 'coming back' from the Pet Semetary (Stephen King's spelling not mine) with killer instincts and ankle monitors. Did Dr.A think about the rights of the children who abided by the law and kept themselves in school despite the odds? Did anyone on his team weigh the potential harm of putting a convicted rapist in the seat next to her/his daughter? Did Dr. A's team consider the developmentally impressionable state of a high school freshman against the frequently nonchalant and noncommittal attitude of a dropout? No child is a throwaway but the old adage remains: it only takes one rotten apple to spoil the whole barrel. If that misses the point then maybe some of Dr.A's Caribbean friends will explain this one to him: "If you fly with buzzards, you'll eat rotten meat!"

Ahhh, the unreported reality right now. The press gave him a free ride on this "Great Kids Come Back" program without any critical questions. Just ask the principals what they think of this..... Of course they can't go on the record so ask the kids.

AT: Those are good points to make - although I wonder about the "convicted rapist" considering that most "convicted" people are, you know, in jail. I would like to see actual statistics before such hyperbole is used. For example, how many of these returning kids have a record, and for what types of crimes. I would also like to know what resources are available to schools and if they are using them. For example, aren't there alternative schools (and no, not the free love kind packed with 60's radicals like I went to) and if so, how many spaces are taken vs. empty right now?

One other thing that always strikes me is the scapegoating of whatever group is convenient for the ills of a school. If we got rid of the returning students, would HLS be a safe enough environment for the Mayor to send her kids to? Was it that safe before the push for getting these kids back in the system? If teachers could get rid of those who they consider the "bad apples" do they not think that others would move up the chain and into those spots? Let's think about this - if we get rid of kids who cause major disruptions so that all of the others (the ones who sit quietly for example) can "learn", then, even if those remaining don't start acting out, we realize that some percentage of the ones remaining read 3 - 4 grade levels below and are stopping the others from moving forward. Now, let's follow our solution plan out a step - lets get rid of those kids because they are stopping teachers from moving kids forward. Now, there are just the kids who read and do math and such at grade level. Great, now we can do our jobs, but then there are a percentage of kids who don't like the teaching style or subject matter, or textbooks and they are slowing us down so... You see where I am going with this.

While I know (or hope?) I will get slammed for being extreme in this logic, I don't think that these issues are really different from what I hear all the time. Teachers cannot do their jobs because a group of kids do X or cannot do X (sit down, read, know their times tables). What we need to do is get the resources and training to deal with X. Or we could all teach at the Park School:-)

And what if we closed all the private schools and put those kids in public schools. How quickly do you think the schools would be better? How quickly do you think people would demand better? What if we made a rule that if you have kids and work in a school you have to send them to your own school? How many teachers in your school would you trust with the education of your own kid? What things would you change about the culture in your school?

These are just, you know, interesting observations I make:-)

Now we get to the real heart of the matter - the whole concept of private schools sucks money, passion, kids, teachers...just about everything... out of the system. I'm talking about more than the school system. Private schools suck the life out of democracy. If we as a society can't commit our kids (our most precious resource) to public schools with their inherent melding of cultures, races, economic levels and the rest, I don't think that we can honestly call this a democratic society. I mean, if we don't want our kids to go to school with "those people" in "those settings" with "those resources", how can we say that we're OK with "them" (the majority) picking our government representatives?

Now do we have some "hot-button" issues going?

IO: Are these really interesting observations or is it just a string of stream of consciousness babble ? No one is scapegoating any one group, least of all me. I am merely stating what is currently happening, i.e. REALITY. Just because people are terrified to talk does not mean it isn't happening.

No one supposes that leaving these adolescents on the streets will be better for them-or society-but you have to wonder why those who choose to do the right thing are frequently inconvenienced to the benefit of those who chose the wrong thing. Everyone is always ready to listen to the story of the person who dropped out of school, got pregnant, used drugs, went to jail, and rehabbed. What about the student who faced the same odds, struggled to stay in school, avoided risky behavior and made it to the graduation stage? Doesn't doing the right thing first count for anything these days? When the prodigal son returned home did his father consider the other frugal obedient son to be worth less than the swinehoarding son?

If we are committed to kids then we are committed to ALL kids in a way that works. We didn't select the best option for children, we chose the best option for the adults.

Nope. They're interesting and they're observations. What they are not is insults (I don't call what you do babbling since that doesn't further the conversation or the thinking).

Okay, now that's out of the way, I think that AT and I agree on some things like that we need to do right by ALL kids. How is blaming the returning kids and wondering if we should have bothered to ask them to come back working for all any more than accusing me of not caring about the ones who do the right thing? Why are these two things mutually exclusive? Why can't schools get that through their heads? Well, some schools can I guess.

What makes people afraid of speaking to the press or speaking out? I damn sure know I'm not afraid - and afriad of what? loosing your job? getting in trouble? Speak the truth people!

And as for stating what is currently happening, you are stating what you THINK is happening without statistics to back it up. Again, lets go to the data here. Before we asked kids back are people really saying that BCPS high schools were bastions of excellence? On what is that based? Last year I seem to remember a teacher getting a beat down that was shown on youtube. We can't blame that on the great kids return can we? Now we are saying that it's their fault the schools see violence? Really? Come on. Show me the data and if I;m wrong I;ll be the first to admit it. Show me how things are worse now than they were, not just that some of the returning kids have gotten in trouble - that doesn't count here.

And as for A parents comments about private school, I couldn't agree more. Shut the private schools down and watch public schools get what they need and become what they should.

What kills me is the "liberal" private schools like Friends, Park, Waldorf or the like. If you're so liberal and open-minded, how about taking your money and energy and putting it into a school that might benefit everybody as opposed to using it to make your kids and all their special friends get a feeling of how superior they are to those poor public school kids.

IO & AP - I have to depart from your ideology here. I don't think it's a zero sum game when we're dealing with private schools v. public schools. I'm not convinced that a dollar there would be equally transferable to a dollar there.

Additionally, I'll relate the issue to that of NGO v. public assistance. I'm very satisfied that United Way and other NGOs exist to supplement government actions. I think the "competition" that's developed serves as a meaningful way to drive the system forward. Instead of looking at these "private" or "non-profit" entities as negatives, I think it's more appropriate to look at them as competition.

Something there is working, for the most part. Yes, money helps. However, something else is occurring in the nation's elite private schools. For instance, private schools don't require teacher certification, and the school climate generally is more focused on learning and achievement (I recognize that these are gross generalizations). But, those who are sending students to private schools are also paying for the public school system's existence. They don't get a waiver. Thus, their tax dollars going towards education are comparatively more efficiently spent than those of parents who are sending their children to public schools.

The trick here is to develop a system where private school parents find reason to send their children to public school. I look at Hampstead Hill Academy, Crossroads ES, and Midtown Academy as several examples of schools that are attracting students who previously may have attended private schools. If we push ourselves inside the system to create a platform of schools that CAN compete with the private schools, I think we'll be affecting more lasting and more meaningful change in a way that doesn't breed contempt or baseless claims of "socialized education." Those are my 2 cents (probably worth less than that though...).

I take offense to the idea of private school being batted around as an inherent cause to the public school ills. As a parent who chooses to send her child to parochial school for the relious based education that is not allowed in public schools as well as a public school teacher, I recognize that the urban district problems are not education problems at all. They are social problems that have not been addressed by politicians because the solutions would be unpopular and expensive. The teachers in Baltimore City do a great job, but they are seriously underappreciated.

I agree totally with Baltimoremom... society is stratified, like it or not. To think that we will ever achieve a utopia where people are equal in resources is naive, though we can strive for equal opportunities. Private schools have existed for longer than public! I agree that the private schools can lead, and my experience is that they often do-- but they are not perfect either, and they have problems that come from the same society. Parents send the best kids they can.

I went to Park School. Hi haters.

Considering Obama's cabinet being elitist is cool again! http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/opinion/21brooks.html

You products of the public school system with your free education crack me up. You should feel privileged that I'm even providing you the opportunity to interact with me. You are below me.

Back on topic I agree with Bill (who is curiously intelligent for a non-private school boy). I don't care how rich you are, if given the choice between a great school that costs 25K a year and a great school that is free, you'll choose the free one every time.*

If we build it, they will come.

*Unless there are too many minorities at the free school, of course.

I love it when people miss the point! It's so much fun to watch people battle over something that wasn't said.

So, from my public school (including a state university education) background I will speak slowly (to Corey who knows I jest) and wave my arms around so that he and others from private schools can understand. What I was saying was that if the privileged few who can afford the price of private school had that option taken away and were forced to put their kids in the public schools, there would be a much harder push for fixing what is wrong with public education - lack of resources, lack of consistently high quality educators, lack of focus on education as a priority from elected officials and so on. But that will never happen.

As for who private schools have a "greater focus on learning", really? Come on. Let's see:

1) Parents pay directly (as in write out a check, not pay with every loaf of bread) for the education
2) Cost of some (most?) private schools = $20,000 per year. Cost for public school = $12,000 of which an average of 7 thousand is under school control
3) Private schools get to kick kids who are under-performing out - not just those who do something that is an "expellable" offence. Not doing well enough in math? Go to public school! Not doing all of your homework? Go to public school! Having behavior problems? Go to public school! As anyone who reads my posts (all 2 of you:-)) knows, I worked for an advanced academic program in a public school. My first week there I had a kid (7th grade) who said to me that he got detention every day in the previous year. I said to him that that wasn't going to happen this year. Within a few months I kicked him out of the program. Not something I am proud of, although it made the class easier to teach. I am sure it made things much worse for him. Private schools get to remove kids who don't fit the mold. Public schools don't. And private schools have kids whos parents actively chose the schools, made transportation arrangements, found money, and on and on.

Public schools need to be smarter since they lack lots of these things. It's partly the teachers and the silly certification requirements that keeps good educators out of classrooms because they lack film strip 101. But that isn't even in the top 10 reasons why there are differences in performance.

Let me be clear about what I am NOT saying - I am not asking for the ability to more quickly put public school kids out - out of the classroom, out of school on suspension or out of the school system. In fact I am asking for more kids to be brought in to the classrooms.

Don't forget special needs when we're talking about who private schools can choose not to serve. I realize that there are non-public special ed schools, but as far as kids needing services being allowed into mainstream private or parochial, not gonna happen.

And by the way, some of my best friends went to private schools. They're a little warped and scarred for the experience, but I try not to hold it against them. After all, their parents made the choice, not them.