Sara:

Thanks for providing a different view point and different platform for ths discussion. I know the hurt feelings of residents of Canton will not be made better by being told that this is a forgone conclusion, but on that point you may be correct.

I love the examples that you provided about schools that DO manage to get along, not just with each other, but with their neighbors. It takes an insane amount of work on the part of dedicated school leaders (just ask Jason from KIPP how often he followed the busses carrying his students to make sure things went well those first few years), dedicated teachers and a real willingness to join forces BEFORE during and after issues arise. I strongly believe in Freedom as well as the other 4 schools opening under the new initiative.

I believe that in five years the very same residents of Canton that are fighting to keep the school from taking over the building, and Counsilman Kraft will be singing the praises of Freedom and inviting other great schools to open. Since I am not a spiteful, grudge holding person, I would never suggest that those who see the value (both in terms of socail justice AND in terms of property values) save these articles and blog postings so that they can hand them to those vary same people when this school has made differences in the lives of so many. I would never suggest that, really! Ok, maybe a little.

Dr. Alonso and his team are doing what has been needed for so long in Baltimore - making real change that will have a lasting impact on ALL of Baltimore.

Thank you also (Sara) for reminding us that this isn't a good forum for anything but great ideas.

To those teachers at Canton Middle now who have gotten their kids involved in this issue, I applaud you! This is the type of authentic learning experience that makes a lasting impression. I hope that all teachers and school leaders are taking notice. I also appreciate the Algebra project for getting into the mix.

Sara,

The debate is very heated. I don't know what the real cause of the anger is or where it comes from. "Common Ground" was a theme last evening in the discussion, so I would like to borrow it if I may, Mr. Sarbanes.

We can all agree that:
1. Kids Deserve a Quality Education
2. The Community Should Be Involved in Their Local Schools (Students, Neighbors, Parents)
3. The Baltimore City educational system has a track record of Failure
4. A Promise from a Politician is worth the weight of air.
5. Crime is not a good thing.
6. Busing a criminal from out of your community into your community is moronic.
7. The people involved in the Friendship Organization are doing great work, and I applaud anyone trying to make this world a better place.

So, I belive we need to guarantee a risk/reward offer for residents of Canton, and people like me who live one block or less from the school.
** We are assuming the risk of this experiment, therefore we should be rewarded with automatic admission in the school should we choose for our children to go there.
** The politicians and city officials are banking on the reward of saying "look what we did, we fixed our education problem!" We need the legislature in Annapolis to make our city schools take responsibility for their experiments. We need to institute an electable school board. Let them risk their jobs over their programs, just like every other policy maker.

If they do decide to close the school though, they could get 60 million for the property, and make 2 million dollars in tax revenue per year. How many city school closings could offer that to the budget? But governments are not run like a business. We have to debate race, and be upset.

I am willing to take the risk of this new school, I just want the reward too.

I went to the meeting last night and it was exactly the type of dog and pony show I thought it would be. There was no useful info given; I came away not knowing anything more than before. Residents of Canton are pissed off because they were told for years that the school was closing and had hope the crime caused by those students would stop. Now the exact opposite is happening; instead of less students there will be a lot more. No one would argue the city school system is terrible and needs drastic change... just don't use one of the nicest areas in Baltimore as a guinea pig. And what happens if the school fails? Will it close? Or will Friendship pull out and the school stays run by the city and revert back to the same sorry state it's in now only with a high school added on? Sarbanes and the representatives from Friendship didn't give one bit of helpful info as to who will attend, the application process, how they will change the system, and what will happen if crime drastically increases. The bottom line is this: the city did a complete 180 on it's previous stated plan and did so without any input from the community. The decision is final so you have to bend over and take it like a man. There are two people who can change it, the mayor or CEO of the school system. Dr. Alonso has already stated his position and that joke of a mayor Dixon doesn't care because that's a "white" district and she only needs the black vote to stay in office. I haven't heard her speak on the issue at all and the only thing she cares about in Canton is that the residents keep paying their insanely high taxes to fund the budget she's trying to pass.

I agree with everything that Canton Resident said. I too was at last night's meeting and felt as if Sarbanes tried to dance around the fact that the Canton community was wrongly excluded from the School Board's decision by citing statistics (albeit statistics about the appalling state of City schools). While I'm sure that Freedom has done great things in DC, I'm also sure that the DC school board would not allow a school similar to the one proposed for Canton to be placed in Georgetown, Foggy Bottom, Dupont or any other comparable DC neighborhood. Not so in Baltimore. As Canton Resident said, they are using one of the strongest City neighborhoods as a testing ground for a new type of school in a location that has proven to be nothing but trouble in the recent past. Great job Baltimore!

On another note, I resent the implicatino by many of the school supporters from last night's meeting that those who don't support the school somehow are racist or don't care about hte wellbeing of the kids. First off, race is a non-issue here. I don't care if the kids are white, black, purple, green or whatever. If they are terrorizing my neighborhood, I want them out. Regarding supporting the kids, many of us who don't support the school support the City's school children in other ways through donations to non-profit organizations, mentoring efforts and volunteer work. We all want to provide our City's children with a quality education. I just think that the City can find another facility in which to provide such an education.

Interesting Observations: We love great ideas, but we'll take a bad idea on this forum, too, as long as it's not hate speech or seeking to incite violence, as the comments we rejected do. (We also can't publish anything that libels someone, though that wasn't the problem in this case.)

I want to make it very, very clear that not all Canton residents are against the school. In fact, this Canton resident is STRONGLY in favor of it. Having Friendship in the current CMS building will be an immeasurable asset in future years.

A few counterpoints, Mr. Kahler... Your risk/reward analysis is flawed and based on unfounded assumptions that defy logic (both formally and informally). You misinterpret the definition of risk and thereby create an inherently circular argument. You cannot create your own definition in order to service the ends of your own reasoning - in legal practice, we simply call that illogical and unfounded (and dare I say unethical depending on the context of the discussion).

I also don't agree on your common ground - "busing criminals from out of your community into your community." Really? Because 1 of 10 or 2 of 10, twelve to fourteen year old students are disruptive to the use and enjoyment of your property, all kids in the building are criminals? This, my friend, is called an uninformed generalization. To say that this situation has nothing to do with race is similar to white southerns in the early/mid-1900s saying that lynching wasn't racist, it was just dealing with the crime problem. When you define what "crime" is and what a "criminal" is, you can bring yourself to any number of outrageous conclusions that are shrouded in apparent chains of misinformed logic. Of course this is inflammatory, but so is trying to claim that race has nothing to do with the statement: "This isn't about race, I (and my primarily white community) just want all the criminals (who we define to categorize a group of individuals who just just primarily happen to be 12-14 year old black boys and girls) out of my neighborhood." Once we can be real with ourselves and what the real discussion is, then, and only then, can we have a productive conversation about what's best for students and for my neighborhood.

Furthermore, I challenge you to take 10 minutes on any Monday or Wednesday from 5:30 - 7:30 pm to come to Patterson Park - Eastern Avenue side - and watch my little leaguers play baseball. Please, come then, and after 10 minutes continue to tell me that they are all criminals (just so happens that most of them attend Canton Middle School). In fact, this Saturday, we have opening day at Patterson Park. Come by any time from 11-3. You're more than welcome, and if you'd like, I'd be more than willing to let you come by and help coach the Tigers. I bet your willingness to label all these young kids as "criminals" wouldn't come so easily in your next discussion.

We, in Canton, are a strong community that is unfortunately being bogged down in a divisive issue that could truly bring us together rather than separate us all. Under new leadership and semi-independent operation, the Friendship school has the chance to become a focal point of Canton. As I said last night, and reiterate today, we can improve Canton middle. It won't be easy. It won't happen tomorrow. It might not happen in six months. But, in the end, we truly can look back after all of the hard work that's gone into creating an incredible school and say - it was worth it.

So, I reiterate, all of Canton doesn't feel that same way as those above who have written. Bring it on Friendship, those of us sincerely invested in the future of Canton and the City as a whole are ready to take on the challenge of this opportunity.

Of course it is legal for Alonzo & crew to renege on promises made to the community, but it is still shameful to push a hgh school on a community where no residents will send their own kids and a large number are opposed to it. It is not good for the community and it is not good for the school. The only way it would make sense would be if there are no other options. But Baltimore schools have been losing students for decades. They close half a dozen buildings every year. Granted these administrators are not so bright, but with so many empty buildings, they ought to be creative enough to find somewhere else to put it. I did not hear a single justification for why the school had to be in Canton.
It certainly makes no sense economically. With the school system so strapped for cash, they should sell the property and invest the money fixing up other schools.
Alonzo says he needs the support of the community. Well, he sure lost mine with his arrogance and holier-than-thou "this is about social justice" attitude. I hear Cuba is going to need a new dictator soon. Maybe he should apply.

Wow, what a great discussion. I can only hope that "both" sides are actually listening to each other, but sadly I fear that isn't the case.

So Jason wants benefits? How about these:

1) Property values go up (or in this market simply stabilize) when good schools are available to all residents

2) No more parking problems from selling off a building and having condo's built which again, in today's economic times might not sell so be left abandoned or go into foreclosure (want to come see how well this has worked in Charles Village? Come see our empty lot and scaled down version of the building on the 3200 block of St. Paul)

3) A school that has a 5 year contract and which can be held to public scrutiny for not doing what it says (school board meetings are on Tuesday nights, come on down), not an indefinite time to see what happens

4) A school staff that understands the importance of creating a positive school culture in and around the school

and of course

5) The promise of ending, at least for the students who attend, the cycle that puts children (remember children?) in harms way because adults have given up on them

6) High school students who can graduate reading, writing and thinking and can more readily integrate in to a "clean" neighborhood like, well, Canton (since this isn't about race I am sure that you would welcome them as neighbors)

7) High schoolers who can get meaningful jobs because they have been given a chance to get the skills that seem so basic to many of us and who can then start contributing to the tax base

8) A school that you (or your neighbors with kids) might actually consider sending your own children to which brings in money to the school system (to the tune of 12,000 per kid for each kid who comes back from prvt school) and save families a great deal of money (my own kids go to a city school) whoch might make them feel, you know, better about all of those high taxes that you complain about.
These are just a few of the benefits that I can think of that I would like to have in my neighborhood, heck, across the street from my house.

And let's think about the risks:

1) Crime - really, you believe that the crime in Canton is ALL the fault of 12 year olds? Wow, you win, Canton is the greatest place in Baltimore since the crime in most areas of the city comes from a lot of other sources.

2) Your tax dollars? Well, first of they are OUR tax dollars (remember citizenship and our responsibility therein?). And how much of those dollars are waisted on keeping empty buildings open or giving tax breaks to developers so that rich people can have condos and build essentially gated communities within the city? Or which go to reacting to problems of crime and neglect since there's such an lack of dealing with it in schools where we might actually have a fighting chance.

I do hear you on the "feeling like promises were broken" thing - that sucks and the system should have included more people on the decision making process. I hope that you can hear others on their points too.

Ultimately, the risk/bennifit thing is what living in a city (and city) is about. I like the ability to walk to parks, shops and other fun attractions as well as have a short commute to work. I trade that gladly with higher taxes, more crime and sometimes worse services. I do this by my choice and gladly. I do this proudly since I also want neighbors of all stripes and colors and economic backgrounds living right next door to me, on my clean block in my excellent neighborhood. I also know that when the benefits seem to small I can pick up my crap and go or I can make different choices or I can be a part of the solution. I choose to do the solution thing. Hope you will do the same.
And I am going to bet that some of the kids who attend Canton actually do come from Canton - Canton doesn't end where white people stop living.

Finally, as Sara reminds us, this should be a civil discussion. Calling Dr. Alonso a dictator, all 12 year olds thugs and criminals or anyone stupid is something that people should be ashamed of. I don't think it's productive to call you racists but I also don't think we can deny that it does have to do with race and class. There
s a difference.

Interesting Observations: The risk is that everything may not work out as rosy as you seem to think. Yes, you might be able to shut the school down after five years if it doesn't pan out, but that's still five years. So obviously the community is assuming some risk.
Promises broken are a big thing, and the school system's response did not help. Not only was there no apology for breaking the promise, Alonso got all self-righteous and sanctimonious, and then sent that lackey Sarbanes to tell us that the city schools are terrible blah blah blah which everybody already knows. I personally don't see why anybody should believe them when they tell us everything will be fine and this new school will be so wonderful etc etc..

Interesting Observatiosn does paint quite a rosy picture. I live 1/2 block from the school and have to put up with the brunt of its negative impacts (persistent litter, crime committed by kids who certainly look like they are 12-15 years old and a general attitude of disrespect from the children walking through the area. For example, when I caught these kids hanging out under my deck and doing other things back there, I asked them to leave kindly and respectfully only to be met with an attituted and to be told that, if I snitch on them, I will get hurt. You can't seriously tell me that these problems are going to get better when they throw high school kids in the school. Nor do I find plausible the assertion that property values will go up. In fact, I am fairly certain that they will go down as a result of the school remaining open. Regarding the assertion that parking problems will be avoided, teh City requires that developers proide a certain amount of parking spaces for each new residential unit, so I don't think that turning the school into condos will cause parking issues. Even if it does, that is a far better problem to worry about than some of the issues presented by the school. I hear the arguments of the school supporters that this is a great opportunity, which it may very well be. However, I would like the school board to take the time to consider other properties for this school rather than one that has already created so many issues for the community. Many in the community (including myself) are fed up with the school and no longer want to see any form of school in that location. The school supporters seem to have no sympathy for, and seem unable to understand, the grief that the present school has caused for many Canton residents.

Sceptic

Yes, I see your point. I don't agree with it 100% though as the "risk" you are taking isn't really made different by having the school there or not. Crime in a city is crime. Last night there was a mugging right outside my front door. We called the cops. Not sure if it was an 8th grader or not, but my guess is not. Crime doesn't disappear because a few troubled kids go to school somewhere else. In fact they may, as they get a few years older, simply drop out and start full time hanging out on the corners where you live (as many have done before them). Without even a chance for someone to care about them this seems like rather a done deal. I know, this isn't your direct concern. But since crime and "quality of life" in Canton is, I thought I would bring this perspecive into the mix. No city - Baltimore, D.C., Philly, you name it - has really figured out what to do about crime. And, in some similar ways to the schools, that's because government alone isn't able to do it all. That's why we are citizens with all that this word entails. I hear you not wanting to get involved in this specific issue, heck there are lots of issues I don't want to get involved in which I am sure some people feel just as strongly about in my city neighborhood. But to actively stand in the way seems counter intuitive to me.

I hope that cooler heads can rise above. I respect that there are hurt feelings, feelings of mistrust and disrespect, on both sides now. I am sure the kids at that school who have read some of these postings and the much less filtered postings on the discussion board feel very angry, and who could blame them? I am sure that residents feel very angry, and again, who could blame them. As Sara suggests maybe it's time to move to the next place. And again, I would ask that name calling (lackey) be left out of it.

This is my first time posting to the site - I have to say it's a lot more constructive than what I've seen in some of the other local papers. I also attended the Canton Middle School Meeting last week and spoke up about what I felt were racially charged comments from some of the residents.

While it may be painful for some people to hear, a largely white neighborhood trying to close down a largely black school is a racial issue (issues of crime and all). The fact that most of the white residents of Canton and other affluent neighborhoods send their kids to private schools (if they stay in the city at all) is a racial issue. This does NOT mean that the people are racists, it just means that it is an issue that needs to be discussed openly in the community. If residents can't send their kids to the school right across the street, then they're victims just as much as anyone else. The inequality of the kids at the schools and the neighborhoods they're in is a real problem, and shouldn't be dismissed because it brings up the issue of race.

I agree with many of posters here who say the real issue is looking forward to the promises offered by the charter schools. Race is, and always will be, a tricky subject in this country. However, the new charter schools offer real and tangible solutions to problems that are plauging the city right now. I think if people really looked hard at the changes Dr Alonso is bringing to this system, then they'd realize that we can have a better future.

Finally, I agree with some of the other posters who have been critical of Mayor Dixon and Dr Alonso. They both need to be front and center taking this topic head on. Regardless of their bases or who they feel they have to answer to, I do agree that their presence at these forums would make a big difference with the communities affected.

I don't think it's a race or a class thing. I think it's a youth thing. I live across the street from a dorm of upper/middle class white college students, and they are totally obnoxious. Loud music blasting out their windows, coming home drunk at 2 a.m.., communicating mostly with hoots and shouts (with screeches added for the females). Then, when they get behind the wheels of the BMWs and SUVs that their mummies and duddies bought for them, they are a total menace. I dare not confront them, because I am sure drunken reprisals would follow. I would be overjoyed if they shut the dorm down and moved these animals away (sorry to the folks don't like name-calling, but these students really have no redeeming qualities that I can see. Actually, it's an insult to animals to dignify these so-called students by calling them that.)

Many have already covered the points I would've made earlier, except for two.

1. No one has discussed the age divide at the Canton meeting. A large portion of the attendees were senior citizens, and I would guess everyone over 65 was against Friendship taking over Canton Middle. Meanwhile I'd guess the majority of under 30 people were for Friendship moving in. The divide makes sense considering the argument for Friendship is a long term argument. Over time we can change the school and its culture, over time we can change Baltimore's youth, over time Canton's property values will rise with a good school vs. no school at all. It's easy to advocate this position when your whole life is ahead of you, not so much when you're only worried about your daily safety and trash around your house.

2. Sarbanes did not represent the city well. His critics were worried about a promise from politicians not being kept and their safety being violated. To counter Sarbanes brought up statistics illustrating the terrible state of our middle and upper schools. I agree that the achievement gap is a problem that trumps the worries of the Canton critics, but how does that response in any tangible way address their worries? He should've talked about crime going down as people become educated and have more options in their lives. He should've talked about successful schools that draw from the same population with drastically different results than Canton Middle. He should've talked about property values going up with a great school in the neighborhood. He should've talked about this takeover as different from those in the past. Yes they brought in some new administrators before, but they never brought in an entire new staff and an operator with one of the best track records in the country.

I'm a big Sarbanes supporter and I'm glad he has the position he has, but KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE!