Absolutely no question that if the hotel guests were white college students, no charges would be filed.

Furthermore, If party goers were armed, they would have shot and killed the attacker right away and no charges would have been filed. So while they beat the crap out of him, I'd like to think that most people would do what they could to make sure the guy wouldn't get up. I'd like to hear the SA's office explain how one might subdue a suspect who just shot people with a machine gun without using too much force.

I don't think the subtle differences are relevant. The Hopkins student went out looking for somebody who had not done anything violent armed with a sword, and gets nothing. If anything, the subtle difference weighs in favor of the hotel guests. Plus, who really knows what happened with the Hopkins case. This paper changed its report of the events probably six or seven times, probably (IMO) in reaction to police coaching the student to make the killing justified.

I know you probably have friends at the SA office, but do us a favor and call them out on this a little more.

Justice is just the roll of the dice in Baltimore. Consider a man who was a victim of spousal abuse by his drunken bi-polar wife for years. When he defended himself the female police officer said,"If I am called to a domestic violence call, I always take the man to jail, if the judge wants to see if differently in court thats his perrogative" Some months later the man heard his wife plotting a contract murder against him. He called the police who said, "There is nothing we can do until a crime has been committed". With no other options and no police protection, he fled the country. A true story.

asain kills suspected robber who is hiding , 2 black men disarm someone that has already shot someone and hold him and hit him , they wait for police and are charged .

Typical baltimore racism , Justice means Just us

Peter,
I agree. None of these guys should be charged. Who's to say when the "threat" is over. This guy already fired his gun, he loses alot of his protection at that point. If they beat him down a little extra, that is human nature after this guy shot their friend. The shooter got what he deserved.

The article is right. The upper class person is what majority sees as themselves, the working class people are seen as a threat. The murder charge is wrong. But, the presenation of Baltimore in the media is responsible for the first. People are fearful of the bad streets of Baltimore. The second was a "party" that was invaded and something terrible happened. Disarming the man was right, not beating him half to death. Assasult for the over reaction would be more in line I believe than, an attempted murder charge.

The message: If you a young black male in America you already have two strikes against you.

Strike one: black male, strike two: young.

Strike three: whatever the so-called criminal justice system can find and make it stick.

Hard to keep race out of this discussion, though the racial differences didn't occur to me until you pointed them out.

I don't have a problem with the Hopkins student getting a pass, assuming his story checked out. He felt in fear of his life, took one swipe, and that was all it took. Yes, he went looking for the intruder--which wasn't too smart, not knowing he wasn't armed--but it's reasonable to assume his hope was th get the guy to run away. Most intruders do.

The hotel beating has one difference: they stayed and beat the guy for a while. Given the circumstances, I don't blame them. On the other hand, we can't give people carte blanche to possibly beat someone to death. (I know he didn't die, but it doesn't appear to be due to lack of effort.) There's got to be some legal compromise here. Can't the prosecutor take conditions and their emotional states into account and charge misdemeanor assault, they plead no contest and get probation?

Is that fair? I really don't know. I'd be curious to see what others thought.

I am so glad you are writing about this, because this was my first thought when I heard that the young men in the hotel incident were being held by police.

As you say, the Hopkins student went in search of a burglar and killed an unarmed man. The men in the hotel had an armed gunman burst in the room and begin shooting. I agree with D. Russell that if these men should be charged with assault, not attempted murder.

(and thank you also, Baltimore Sun, for FINALLY doing something about the spam in the comments!!!)

Agree with Dana King. Hopkins student completely not at fault; correct. And from what I heard, his story checked out. The other two - they were heroes in subduing the guy and disarming him, but it really needed to stop there. They continued to beat the assailant so severely that he is still in Shock Trauma two months later. Attempted murder seems a bit harsh - I mean, the assailant was essentially attempting murder, as well. Had the two men put the guy into a sleeper hold and in so doing broke his arm and popped both of his shoulders out of their sockets - I don't have a problem with that. Had they shot the guy in the struggle for the gun - again, don't have a problem. The fact that they disarmed and incapacitated him AND THEN BEAT HIM TO A BLOODY PULP.... I don't see how that's defensible....

"Absolutely no question that if the hotel guests were white college students, no charges would be filed. "

And the chances a white college student brought a gun to a party ready to use it because someone looked at them wrong is highly unlikely!

I think it is an oversimplification to say that racial bias is the driving force behind these different outcomes from the DA. When I look at the nuances of the situations and consider the facts as a legal question, the lawyers who made the decisions in these matters have come to reasonable conclusions.
The laws governing the use of deadly force in self defense change when you are in your home. As a general rule, we have a duty to retreat when possible instead of confronting our attackers and responding with deadly force. However, when you are in your own home, the duty to retreat before using deadly force, if it still exists at all, is greatly diminished.
Self-defense in your home can be said to be justified if you believe the victim is committing or was about to commit a crime in your home, that belief is reasonable, and you use no more force than reasonably necessary to defend yourself against the conduct of the victim, up to and including deadly force.
In the sword incident, the student apparently met the above criteria, with the most difficult aspect probably being the question of if his use of deadly force was reasonable. If the agreed upon facts are that an intruder sprang from the dark toward the student and the student in a split second took one swing, then I probably agree that what the student did was reasonable under the circumstances. The student did not have to retreat in his own home, so while picking up a sword and walking out to his garage might sound like going out and looking for trouble, the law allows us to do so.

The harbor shooting has some different facts. For one, the incident took place at a hotel party, a situation where the house/home exception for the duty to retreat would not apply. That would mean that before the two guys who beat the gunmen used deadly force in self defense, they would have had to have attempted to run away, unless they could not have safely escaped, they did not know of the escape route, or a few other exceptions. I don’t know enough about what happened to know if the DA looked at the case and decided that the two guys should have retreated, but that is something that, in my opinion, is at least as likely a reason they were charged as the idea that the DA made their decision based on racial bias.

Another question to consider is whether the two guys who beat the gunman were defending themselves or defending someone else (like the person who got shot, or other party-goers). It is significant because in the defense of others, you also need to prove that your purpose in using force was to aid the person defended. At some point, the beating may have stopped being for the purpose of defending others, and become something else. I don’t think we have enough facts to really analyze this question. How long did the beating last? Did the guy surrender? Did the beating stop and then resume? I have no idea, but with access to witness statements and police reports, the DA has no doubt formed an opinion on this. If we are going to racial bias as a reason for pressing charges, I think we should look at this too as a potential legal reason.

Look, I know I wrote too much, but I just want to point out that there is almost certainly more to it than a double standard. Reasonable minds can disagree about why the DA came to the decisions that they did, but it is important to at least consider the legal rationales that could justify those decisions, and at least try to apply the law to the facts. If you do so and come up with a bizarre result, then I think it really raises the question of whether there is a race or class based double standard in self defense cases. It is probably a fair question to ask anyway, but I think considering bias alone as the driving force behind the DA’s decisions is an oversimplification that gets away from the real questions these two matters raise - whether our self defense laws go too far or not far enough.

Raymond Woodland, the 19 year old that defense attorney Brown calls a "thug," also deserves justice. He is one of those who is "in the cross-hairs of the criminal justice system," as Mr. Brown puts it. If he would deny justice to Mr. Woodland then it is he who is deciding what men "aren't good candidates and ... aren't afforded the same consideration."
If the facts turn out to be similar to what The Sun has reported then I suspect the defendants have a strong case on its merits. I suggest it would be best judged on its merits. The system works best that way.

"Typical baltimore racism , Justice means Just us" says larry g

I agree, all those blacks in charge of Baltimore city are RACIST and discriminate!

There is no doubt that this has to do with race. Young black men are seen as expendable when it comes to the judicial system in America. Anyone that is suprised by the decision to charge the two guys in the hotel beating is not living in the real world. I am sure the people that were at the event are glad that these guys did what they did.

I don't see myself reacting differently in either situation. I don't know if I would have had the restraint to strike only once with the sword and I don't think I would have stopped beating the guy in the hotel either. I will take my chances to protect myself and my family and let the law sort it out later which is what is happening here. The "white" guy thought he was in emminent danger and had a perfectly legal weapon in his possesion. If he had walked outside with a handgun and shot the guy to death instead of a using a sword, I bet he he would still be facing charges. The "black" guys kept beating the guy which, while it is what most people would do, was probably excessive in the eyes of the law. Just like if the "white" guy had continued hacking his assailant into a thousand pieces. I think these two will eventually get off, but the law has to play out. And for all you people stating that the black man gets a raw deal in Bmore, have you looked at the conviction rate? Please.....get real.

This looks like Baltimore!

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=7254219

As a member of the Baltimore Guardian Angels we are held to a strict code of conduct.

We are instructed when making a Citizens' Arrest.

Common Law Copyright © 1994

All Rights Reserved
Black's Law Dictionary definite a "Citizens' Arrest" as: "The apprehending or detaining of a person in order to be forthcoming to answer an alleged or suspected crime." See Ex parte Sherwood, (29 Tex. App. 334, 15 S.W. 812).

Historically, in Anglo Saxon law in medieval England citizen's arrests were an important part of community law enforcement. Sheriffs encouraged and relied upon active participation by able bodied persons in the towns and villages of their jurisdiction.

From this legacy originated the concept of the "posse comitatus" which is a part of the United States legal tradition as well as the English. In medieval England, the right of private persons to make arrests was virtually identical to the right of a sheriff and constable to do so. (See Inbau and Thompson, Criminal Procedure, The Foundation Press, Mineola, NY 1974.

A strong argument can be made that the right to make a citizen's arrest is a constitutionally protected right under the Ninth Amendment as its impact includes the individual's natural right to self preservation and the defense of the others."

There may some room for doubt based on published accounts of the incident, but when a student with a Katana is in fear of his life and kills an intruder the Ninth Amendment is clear "the right of an individual to make a citizen's arrest." It appears that this intruder did not wish to be arrested and took it upon himself to; in the words of the student " he said the man advanced toward him and raised his hands. He couldn't tell whether the man was armed (he was not), and fearing for his life."
Remember, the Ninth Amendment as its impact includes the individual's natural right to self preservation.

Based on the published accounts - In the case of the two individuals who disarmed the gunman and beat him senseless. Disarming and subduing the gunman is within the limits of the law.

However, after disarming and subduing the gunman they took it upon themselves to beat him into unconsciousness is not self preservation. Once EXCESSIVE FORCE" was used it ceased to be self defense. They became criminals. That is the way the law is written.

Citizens have the power to change the laws. If you don't like a law - do something about it - don't complain about it. You have the right to speak out to your legal representatives.

Did the gunman deserve what he got?

You judge for yourselves. Maybe yes and maybe no.

Did the subduers cross the line?

Again, you judge for yourselves.
Maybe yes and maybe no.

Taxman- I read through must of your post and you make strong points but the problem I have is that the kids with the sword left his house and went into the backyard to confront the intruder.

He could have just as easily called the police and waited, whereas the kids at the hotel did not have a choice, they had to react in the moment.

Did they overact? probably, but who knows what you would do if someone shot a friend right in front of you.

Taxman has it right...Once excessive force is used it's no longer considered self defense and a crime has been committed. This applies to everyone; private citizens, law enforcement and even president Obama. Maryland has a track record of enacting oppressive self defense laws which in turn has allowed criminals to run Baltimore.

You: "Maryland has a track record of enacting oppressive self defense laws which in turn has allowed criminals to run Baltimore. "

Me: You betray yourself with that sentence. what you write has nothing to do with the case. That is all.

Dear Gregg,

I appreciate your comments and thanks to Avenger!!

From the published accounts:
"The Hopkins student, alerted by police to a possible intruder."

Since we do not know what the next step would have been for the intruder; we cannot guarantee that his next step would have been to enter to house.

Let's get to it Gregg ---

You stated - "Did they overact? Probably, but who knows what you would do if someone shot a friend right in front of you."

The law is clear - based on published accounts -

no "probably" about it Gregg - it was excessive force!

As far as "what (I) would do if someone shot a friend right in front of you."

I hope I would resort to my training and do what is necessary to see the attacker was brought to justice.

As a member of the Baltimore Guardian Angels one of my responsibilities is to teach STREET SELF DEFENSE. Handcuffing and control techniques which is DEFENSIVE.

Remember Gregg - the law is clear on excessive force.

Our people have the ability to disarm an attacker. They also have the ability to defend themselves. I pray we never have to use what I am teaching.

Our training is continuous. As their instructor I am expected to know and teach the "Martial Arts and the Law".

We are training in CPR and one of our Angels is a criminal lawyer who instructs us in the law.

The Guardian Angels are not vigilantes - we are a visible deterrent to crime.

It is common knowledge that the Guardian Angels are trained in weapons defenses. We do not train in a dojo. We train for the streets. This is real life but there is a discipline; as I stated before we are held to a strict code of conduct and a higher standard. It is expected if we are to meet the challenges we face every time we are on patrol.

You have a greater change of being attacked than we do when we are on patrol in the worst areas of Baltimore City.

I challenge you and anyone to check out our website and visit our headquarters.

Become part of the cure not part of the problem.

Attend the citizens meeting at the Baltimore City Southern District Police Station on the third Thursday of every month. You will find us there...

Thank you Peter for addressing this. I thought the SAME thing when I heard of the two stories. How dare they make these kids spend the night in central booking, rather than in the hospital with their friend...who by the way was shot in the face with an automatic weapon. they had no idea what his condition was or if he was going to live or die.. those kids were heroes! They protected who knows how many people from being shot and maybe killed in that hotel room that night.

The Hokpins kid was angry about his video games and decided to seek his own street justice. He feared for his life? From a junkie with his hands up? Who obviously had no weapon... lunged at the kid, maybe...

Deserved to lose his life over a petty theft? I think not... You have the right to protect your castle... when you're in it... you cannot go seek out a would be robber and slice his hand off...
He gets to go in with his life and attend his c lasses... while these kids have to go through a trial...spend who knows how much money to defend themselves and fight serious charges...

Race undoubtedly has its role, but you can't overlook class; Hopkins pulls a lot of weight in this town.

You all seem to be forgetting that the Hopkins student was at HOME...ASLEEP! The guys in the hotel on the other hand, were all most likely inviting trouble. I doubt the two in the hotel room were fast asleep, when a stranger came in and started shooting. I could then understand the self-defense argument. These guys staying at hotels late-night with guns, probably have a little more explaining to do. Investigators are not stupid and I doubt they are all out to suppress the black man. Get real you all.

Dear Anonymous,

You stated the following:

"Race undoubtedly has its role, but you can't overlook class; Hopkins pulls a lot of weight in this town.

That's right when in doubt play the race card.

When are you going to learn that it's not the white race or the black race or any race -but the HUMAN RACE?????

People like you and BET perpetuate segregation and racism.

OK. How about the WET - the White Entertainment Network.
That's just as stupid.

I may disagree with what you are saying but I will defend your right to say it. After all this is still a free country and my taxes are paying for it.

It is unfortunate but racism will always be with us.

Until people can stand up and say that race TRULY does not matter we will remain a "silly people - a little people."

The same goes for religious freedom.

More wars have been started in the name of religion than for any other reason. Just look at the Catholics. By the way I am Catholic so I can say it...

Isn't is a shame Anonymous that we have to live this way.

But remember we have the power to change it... Not all at once but by taking it one day at a time.

People keep saying that the hotel shooter had an automatic weapon. While he had an UZI, it was single shot and not equipped for full auto. Not that it makes it any less of a shooting, but people keep emphasizing the Automatic aspect when in fact it was semi automatic meaning it shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger, just like a sig or a glock. Either way, still a dumbass.

I actually believe the Hopkins student should be charged with Manslaughter. The fact that he had no need to go looking for this suspect, he clearly could have remained in his residence and there fore no threat exsisted. The two subjects that beat the shooting suspect reacted to a threat of deadly force, once the suspect was subduded, the beating should have stopped. I'm a former MSP trooper and I do feel that this clearly motivaterd by class, by the way is generally race based!

A guy takes one swipe with a sword in self defense and 2 guys hold a guy down and beat him half to death with his own gun. Doesn't seem like there' anything wrong with the outcomes.

The difference is the excessive force. The first guy took one swing with what he had, defending his property. He didn't stand there and hack at him for minutes after he was subdued. The other 2 guys kept beating a guy (although I think rightfully so) after there was no longer a threat.

Good for all 3 of them, but the 2 guys at the party went past what the law will let you get away with. No racism to it. I'm a little tired of every comment on articles about Baltimore being about racism. "It's cloudy today." "It's because of racial bias." Quit being so paranoid.

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