Right on, Leah. You said it well, and I completely agree!

As a child-free person who lurks on Dining@Large, I'll go Leah one step better and say don't even blame the kids who don't behave in restaurants. They're just doing what comes naturally. Blame the parents for not teaching them that in a world we share with other people, doing what comes naturally isn't always the appropriate option. (Plenty of adults also need to learn this lesson.) A mother who once saw me scowling as her child rampaged around a store said "You can't blame him; he's just 4." I responded, "I don't blame HIM."

Leah, I'm sure you are well behaved and a wonderful child (whose cute factor is being exploited by her mother, but that's another issue). The point of the discussion is not that any of the childern are to blame. Rather its the mindless, thoughtless, 'we're more important than anyone else' parents who are too inconsiderate to properly deal with their children. I'm guessing that the children have been raised to allow them to do anything they want. The parents no longer even hear the screams and banging and kicking, since they have it all the time at home.

Its clear the parents (and those who think the D@L comments are about children) don't get it: see Ms. Annelies' comment. Other than a few folk who like their children with a nice sauce, or given away if unattended, no one has a problem with children. Its the parents who think their little darling is too wonderful not to be loved by all upon whom little darling is inflicted.
Further comment is futile since the parents don't care or get the point. The world does not revolve around little children.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Robert.

Just because you love your child to death and think their every move is precious and adorable, the rest of the world does not necessarily agree.

Again, I have nothing against kids.....until they start affecting my life. I specifically choose not to have them because I don't have the patience to deal with them. (Yet I somehow have to deal with other people's misbehaving children on a daily basis)

The topic of a child reviewing a restaurant from a child's perspective came up some time ago on D@L. I thought it would be a excellent idea, as long as the kid really writes the content. Since Mama Bear didn't run with it, I betray my allegiance to EL and offer it up to you. I'm not so interested in the cute factor, but what if anything matters to kids. Consider it a psychological and epistemological experiment.

I would bet it's really really different than adults. How fun would it be to compare EL's restaurant review with a ten year old's? Oh yeah, that's how mischievous I am! Back home for me before Elizabeth burns my nest. Cross-blog interaction .. bring it!

This is a great idea, OMG. I had forgotten about it. Any omnivorous kid reviewers out there whose parents want to offer their services?

It doesn't even have to be restaurants, just food-like substances, but restaurants would be best. And I swear by Mighty Thor that none of us will criticize the kids or their writing. But if I see the words epistemological, foie gras, milieu or soupçon I will know that something is up.

OMG you are getting quite promiscuous lately. I've seen you on three blogs today.

Further to Ms. KristinB comment. The parent in the story is going to be so shocked when little one is 14 and comes home to mention he: will be a father in about 6 months; has been arrested for x; is using y drug(s). Oh, how could this happen, we raised little one so well.

Has it not occurred to these parents that there is a reason why the house is child-proofed. Its the same reason children, generally, don't belong out in public, except on a short figurative (and possibly literal) leash.

Hey RtSO, isn't it fun to give advice about raising kids when you don't have any? Just like Oprah!

Restaurant behavior solution: Skinner Box.

I always thought that smoking should be allowed everywhere, but you just have to wear a bubble helmet that processes the toxins out of the air using just your own lungs. Hey, if second hand smoke isn't bad then YOU process all of it. The category was mobile human enclosures for 1000.

Skinner Box I like it, I like it.

And yes advice without experience is good, but any number of folk provide valid observations without direct experience (rocket scientist, for example.)

Now, I hear Mom calling. Back to the Sandbox for both of us.

I don't have a problem with a restaurant banning kids. If a no-kids policy brings in more customers than it drives away, then go for it.

It wouldn't be a good move for, say, Rainforest Cafe, but it might work for some other restaurant. Let a thousand flowers bloom.

Well, its a time-out and no happy meal for me. I should have said this earlier: thank you Ms. Carey, for your kind words.

Bad Robert, bad.

RtsO--you know we are very fond of you, but let's drop the jokes about children and sauces, pretty please. It leaves a bad taste in this mother's mouth.

I just got my hair cut and listened to the collective wisdom in the shop talking about children who misbehave--it's not just a blog topic!

Kristin B. is absolutely right. Kids and dogs tend to fall into similar categories for me - I don't mind well-behaved ones, but they tend to be in the extreme minority these days, and it's not their fault. It's easier to lash out at the 4-year-old who is actually causing the ruckus than the parent who allowed said ruckus, but that's not fair to the child.

We could get into a whole chicken-or-egg discussion here, but regardless of the root cause of the inappropriate behavior, ill-mannered children and their oblivious parents bug the living daylights out of me. I try my best to avoid you but you're everywhere. Not one hour ago I was in a Rite-Aid and saw a toddler running circles around his mother's legs screaming something akin to "bee boo" for a good solid 5 minutes. No, this wasn't a restaurant, but I saw no evidence that mom would have tried to stop Junior had it been. I wanted to throttle them both, but because my mother raised me right, I didn't. Thanks, Mom.

Sandboxers unite!

@Robert (tSO) - You and I are not actually on a different page. Parents should be held responsible when misbehavior by a child in a restaurant (or anywhere else) is not swiftly or appropriately dealt with, including leaving the premises.

What I do agree with anyone (Leah, whomever) expressing is the error in regarding ALL parents with the same contempt and judgement.

An interesting aside is that when children are behaving quite well, it often goes unnoticed (as it should, perhaps RtSO would add), and therefore no one has to "deal with them" - it's only the misbehaving ones that other folks have to "deal with" (Carey's comment).

But I assure you not all children today are being raised with a sense of entitlement, nor without good manners and uncommon sense.

Go Leah! Frances agrees entirely.

IMHO, there are 3 simple rules around taking a child to a decent restaurant. Arrive early, eat fast, and tip well. I follow these rules, and we're pretty popular at the restaurants we frequent regularly. Honestly, if you're in a restaurant at 6pm you're not there for the fine dining experience, people. I probably wouldn't go to a restaurant that banned children, but not out of a sense of outrage, but because the restaurant would probably be too uptight to be enjoyable.

Also, if you witness five minutes of unruly behavior, it seems like a bit of a logical leap to assume that the child is going to turn into a criminal. Ever have a bad day?

Dahlink: as you wish. See you at the next gathering?

Mr. Leah's Uncle, you have just made my point for me. Five minutes of unruly behaviour is probably not the exception, but the norm. Parents of a well behaved child will not accept 5 minutes of crying, screaming and fits, bad day or not. That child will be removed by excellent parents who are themselves too embarrassed to do anything but leave. The type of parents who accept a 5 minute outburst do so all (most) of the time.

Robert, i think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to find a parent whose child has never had a bad five minutes. That parent may exist, but he/she probably lives next door to the Easter Bunny and across the street from Santa Claus, with a load of Saddam's WMDs in the basement.

Mr. Leah's Uncle, I never said good children and their parents may not experience 5 bad minutes. Read all my words: what I said was that this parent-child combination would remove themselves from the company of others should a 5 minute episode begin. The world would be deprived of about 4.5 minutes of the episode.

I posted a comment over at D@L (back in September) under Pet Peeves. I thought it would be relevant to add to this discussion. Truth is, all I would really like to see is parental accountability.

I have two little girls and inevitably, every time we go to a nice restaurant, we are seated next to the bathrooms or the kitchen door. Now my girls are so polite and well behaved that we frequently have other patrons come to our table and compliment our daughters. Heck, I even had an owner (who had initially seated us) apologize to me for ‘trying to tuck’ us away. He then went on to explain how most children act in their establishment.

I just don’t know whom to blame. Should I blame the restaurants for punishing us because we have children or should I blame all those parents who never do a thing about their unruly children? No matter which way you cut it, I would just like to go to a nice place where I don’t have to contend with the noise of the kitchen and waiters coming through the door every 20 seconds or the stench of a well used bathroom.

I rarely see any children at the places I go to eat (bars or finer dining, mostly), but when I finish a long day of work and need some peace and a good meal, I get really, really angry at the parents who let their screaming or otherwise loud and annoying children do whatever they want, while I'm paying not a small amount of money for a fine meal and fine bourbon to the unanticipated and unwelcome soundrack of Bratz.

One of these days I'm going follow those parents from the restaurant to wherever they go, wait until they seem to have put the children away and are trying to relax, and then I'm going to do something really loud and annoying to them, a la Waco, such as blasting London Calling right at their house all night. Or maybe just a simple constant chainsaw, all night long.

Kate's daughter seems cool and wise, though, which is a fine reflection on Kate. No Clash for you, Kate.

Thank you! Leah will love being called cool and wise.

Just popping over from D@L, where everyone would prefer parents control or remove their unruly children while we are trying to have a nice time out. I hope Leah is not scarred by this experience, we don't blame the kids, we blame the parents. And Leah is welcome anywhere I'm boozing and eating.

I don't see kids much anywhere I go, but sometimes they can be incredibly sweet when they appear. I was at Safeway last week and there was a little girl in a cart nearby while I was choosing OJ to buy for Mother's Day mimosas. She couldn't have been older than 3. This was our conversation, and it made my MONTH it was so cool:

"Hi!" she says. "What is your name?"

"My name is "LJ." "What is your name?" (which she provides)

"What are you doing?"

"I'm choosing which orange juice to buy." "Which one do you like?"

She points to mango-pineapple OJ. "Get THAT one!"

"I might."

"What do you like to do, LJ?"

"I play piano."

"I like piano." "And I like to dance." "How are you feeling today, LJ?" (I pause, because the answer is a little complex, what do you say to a 3 year old?).

Her grandmother comes back, apologizing profusely, which wasn't necessary, and wheels the cart away, while the little girl is shouting, "I love you LJ!!" "I love you!" "I love you, LJ!"

Everyone around us was laughing, and it was the sweetest moment. Even for those of us who don't have kids, and most times would rather not be around them because they can be disruptive, they can really brighten your life in sudden and unexpected ways.

Thank you, LJ, for proving that not all D@L habitues are curmudgeons!

Young kids are hardly ever a problem these days. Today it seems to be teens and young adults who can't keep themselves from having loud foul-mouthed discussions. Restaurant Owners/managers need to address these problems before they start loosing patrons - aka people who actually tip the wait staff.

I'm a relatively new parent with a 9 month old baby. Eating out doesn't happen as often as it used to, but when we do take her out we go to family-friendly places (we also bring food for her and something to play with). On the one occasion where we went to a more upscale restaurant with her, we got there for dinner at 5 when the place was empty and it was a lovely, stress-free experience for us, and the staff. We only take our daughter to restaurants that are "Bean-friendly" (aka baby friendly). (Note: A few weeks ago, at a Bean-friendly place, an elderly couple put a five dollar bill in my baby's hand, because she "smiled" at them during the meal and well behaved!) If we have the means to go out to an upscale place, and my mom can babysit, we sneak away to have a "date" on our own. Having been raised partially in Europe, and exposed to all manner of gourmet cuisine at a very young age, I know that there are children capable of dining out with composure. If your child is not capable of that, however, it's best to stick to the family-friendly places. No one wants to spend several hundred dollars on a meal, only to have a crazy little person running around (OR a crazy adult for that matter being rude to waitstaff, talking on his/her cell phone, or generally acting in bad taste). In all honesty, I think the people with unruly kids in the restaurants are the same parents who bring their kids to the movies at 9 pm. [ ]

Mr. Leah's Uncle,

Yes, children do have bad days. However, they DO NOT have to affect the general public.

Unfortunately, I was 6 when my sister was born. I say unfortunately because this is why I refuse to have children. I remember every moment of her childhood. I saw how strict my parents were and I saw how much energy it took to raise a child right.

I will tell you firsthand, a temper tantrum/outburst/crying/bad day did not last for 30 seconds in or out of our house. You acted like a civilized human being or you went to your room until you could. Or you were taken out of said public place, taken home, and put in your room until you could behave. And I'm talking when my sister was 1 year old until she moved out.

She was an energetic handful and got punished quite frequently. My parents missed a few meals in the beginning, but kids do learn quickly. After a while, all it took was a look from my father and we knew we had to behave.

However, and I think this is a huge point: We acted the same in our house as we did in public. We did not play with our food, we had to finish all of our food (or we couldn't leave the table-many nights my sister was there for HOURS), no one moved from the table once dinner started, we spoke like adults and carried on civilized conversations, and there was absolutely no screaming/yelling/loud voices or running inside the house. Ever.

Now if these rules were followed today in public, I would have no problem with anyone's kids.

You're right, those of you who point out that not all children are unruly in restaurants, and that well behaved kids and their parents don't get the credit they deserve. Last Sat., friends with three kids, ages 2-7, came to visit me. We went to the playground at Patterson Park for some fun, then walked down to Austin Grill (a deliberately chosen kid-friendly venue) for dinner. As we approached the restaurant door, their mom reminded the kids that we were going inside now and their restaurant manners were required. They behaved beautifully, because they were expected to - stayed in their seats, used inside voices, ate politely, and the whole bit. We opted not to stay for dessert because the 2-year-old was nearing the end of his ability to be still and quiet, and his parents didn't want to overstay and disturb nearby diners. After dinner, we went to Cold Stone Creamery right across the parking lot and even after that short break were again reminded to put on their best manners, and of course they did.

I'm always happy to dine with or near families who are so well behaved! It's the others who put everyone's hackles up.

Cute conversation notwithstanding, LJ? Whatever happened to parents or grandparents teaching children not to speak to strangers?

1. Rock on Leah! We would follow you to the MOON.

2. Lots of issues involved here. Yes, parents need to be responsible, but unruly kids aren't necessarily future criminals either. Sometimes they're just tired.

3. RtSO's comment: "The world doesn't revolve around small children." Unfortunately it doesn't, but the world would probably be a MUCH better place if it did.