Isn't Ellicott CITY by definition, urban? Okay, maybe "city" is bit overblown in this particular case.

Ellicott City is by definition a two stop light town. Old Ellicott City. Yep. Two. On Main Street.

Now, as for the rest of the sprawl that came up around it that calls itself Ellicott City...

Suburban =chain or trying to act like a chain. It means ranch dressing, kid friendly, parking but no sidewalks or bus stops, servers who are just doing this while going to college or on the side, Sysco's lower quality prepared foods and a certain playing to the lowest common (white and middle class) denominator.

I realize not all restaurants in the suburbs are like this (Grace Gardens, for example, is most certainly not).

I've always wondered how chains manage to dominate dining in new and up-and-coming suburban neighborhoods. Maybe they are more privy to zoning records? More of top of development and real estate trends? Maybe they are just quicker to the punch than local restaurant owners?

Lissa: your description is exactly why I break out in hives when Mr. 21224 suggests leaving the city. We don't have children (or at least children not of the canine species), so why must I be forced to dine with them? Why is everything served with ranch? Balsamic is not a foreign term!

National chains are brought into the development game early. Much like store are (think barnes and noble for the new building on the UB campus) Although it's not complete much of the financing depends on commitments made by these chains, stores and restaurants alike. So, the system for development does tend to keep the local establishments at a disadvantage.

My captchs has numbers in it...
13,633 summing
did they catch on to our game and tried to throw us off?

Duclaw in Fells Point was very kid-friendly. We loved taking our daughter there and eating outside. They had a good kids menu with great roasted vegetables to substitute for the fries.

The Suburban Dining Experience includes no pot holes, no panhandlers, very little gun fire and plenty o' free parking, right in front of the restaurant.. At places like Aida, Victoria, El Azteca, Cafe de Paris, Pho Nam and Ironbridge the chow's pretty good too.

Sabor?
Crush?
Christopher Daniel?

\Baja Fresh?

I agree with Bill in Columbia (and also nominate his description for comment of the week) We in the "burbs are not all culturally deprived lemmings who flock to the chains! We actually DO like good restaurants (without taking out a mortgage to pay the check)

I'm with Bill! I'll add to the list with Sushi Sono, Burrito Brothers and Great Sage for just great food.

Restaurants in the burbs are forced to appeal to a larger audience because they lack the population density of the city that can support more niche offerings. It's unfortunate but it is the winning recipe if they want to last. That said, there are some nice spots opening up out there that I'd like to try out like Victoria Gastro Pub. And hey - there's easy parking in the burbs! Everything has its pros and cons.

21224 - because it's a free country where people freely reproduce, just like your parents did :D

The density argument makes sense.

It never occurred to my mother until over 10 years after she had my brother and me that she did *not* have to marry and have children.

She would rather, like me, and, I suspect, 21224, eaten with dogs than with kids.

The constant bashing of kids and parents dining with kids is tired. Here's an idea....stay at home where no kids can intrude in your little Utopia. I feel like 80% of the people commenting on blogs just want to complain about something.

And I realize my comment includes me complaining about another comment!

Today's suburbs are far more sophisticated than they used to be. They are also far more diverse. In fact, many suburbs are more diverse than the cities they surround.

The key to suburban chain restaurant success? Bread and heaping salad bowls. Take Red Lobster's flaky muffins or Bertucci's tasty rolls, for instance. After you fill up on them, followed by well-doused greens, you're sufficiently sated not to notice (or care) that what follows is sorta' ordinaire.

Bravo John! Oh, and if you dine with dogs, do you get fleas?

Sory people, but Baltimore restaurant's suck! This is a city of wanna-be's. Go to Washington DC if you want to do it right.

Oddly, the meals I've had in DC have been distinctly inferior, except for Mitsatsam. Expensive, too.

Interesting that DuClaw automatically gets painted as non-kid friendly (not that I necessarily think of as kid friendly, more like kid neutral), I think because of its emphasis on beer. Anyone who has been to the Pacific Northwest knows that the beer pub culture there is very different than here in Baltimore. My last trip to Portland (at Christmas), we visited Hopworks Urban Brewery, which not only has a big kids menu, but even a has a play area for kids with toys and a big chalkboard. I don't know which part I like more: the pizza, the beer, or the smiling kids enjoying the Brio train set while their parents sipped on craft beer (for the record, I have no kids). I'd love for Baltimore to have a place like that, urban or suburban.

Wow. Didn't realize I represent the lowest common denominator (white and middle class). Do I need to apologize in public?

Old Phil, public apologies will be heard on Monday afternoon at the Applebeas in Bel Air, Cockeysville and Westminster.

JohnJ - I happen to like alot of Baltimores' restaurants. And the only thing we don't "wanna-be" is pretentious like DC. Stick that in your Marion Barry crack pipe and smoke it.

John J. I have lived in the Baltimore area for 13 years. My husband and I are big foodies eat out 3 or 4 times a week live in the burbs but hit the city at least twice a week. Have lived in many of the majors. DC area, Boston, Philly, Chicago, Houston and traveled extensively. We think Baltimore has come a long long way in the restaurant area. We find many places as good as restaurants in the other cities. There may not be as much selection but Baltimore has it fair share of really good places to eat. Sometimes I think people come into a city like Baltimore with preconceived opinions....I know we did. Give it a chance (I have many friends that would not believer I am sticking up for Baltimore but I am!) take some time to enjoy

I'm with Lissa.

The particular reference to DuClaw isn't so much about urban-versus-suburban, it's about the development corporatization that simply more associated with the suburbs that Bubbles brings up.

There are plenty of 'lifestyle centers' in larger cities -- they just opened one up in my hometown complete with a Cheesecake Factory. But the point of how that works is that it brings a suburban planned development model into the city.

My first thought when the Fells DuClaw opened was that someone thought to import the suburbs.

It's notable that so many are so quick to jump to the defense of the excellent non-corporate establishments outside city limits. There are some fantastic ones, to be sure -- but when you compare them to the lines persistently snaking out of Bahama Breeze, or Melting Pot or any of an endless number of outparcel and strip mall chains, I can't see how you can't admit to the association.

RoCK, how about my local Red Lobster?

If white, middle class is the lowest common denominator I would really love to know the higher orders. I consider the middle class, all colors included, to be the backbone of America. I see the customers in the generic chain restaurants in Baltimore and Howard counties to be pretty evenly split between black, white, yellow, and brown. Please Lissa, give us a list of the higher orders so we members of the lowest denomination can have goals.

RoCK, how about an Applebee's in the City of Baltimore?

EEL, I've had the misfortune of having to eat at Applebee's in the ugly suburbs of several cities, and I don't understand why we'd want one in Baltimore.

I also don't like being forced to dine with folks wearing stinky cologne/perfume, those braying loudly about politics, overly-loud laughers, middle aged women who have had too much chardonnay, people who talk on cell phones, table drummers, that guy who won't move his chair in just a little bit so we can get by him, that couple making out over there (ugh, @ Bombay Grill)... etc.

I believe John's right, I can only think of one place where I can guarantee those folks won't be... But, since I often enjoy food that my frig and stove don't host, I must mingle with the general public, the unwashed masses, even the lowest common denominators, with and without children, from time to time.

Also, I would recommend that those of you who prefer the company of dogs to humans avoid places, like restaurants, where humans tend to congregate. I think you might find a more pleasurable dining experience at, say, Robert E Lee Park.

...and look, there's even a list of places you and your dogs can spend your time together! Now, I can't guarantee there won't be children there - believe it or not, children would almost 100% rather hang out with dogs than you, also - but at least you can be sure that there will be a healthier ratio of your preferred four-legged companions to underage members of your own species than at any restaurant in Maryland.

I can only assume that John, Bob UU and I aren't the only ones tired of hearing the constant complaining about kids in restaurants in the comments here. The records sounds broken to me - let's play a new one already!

Lissa, 21224, and others, I can only assume your parents never took you out to restaurants when you were kids? Or if they did that you at least still resent them for doing so? I had pretty (no, I had REALLY) good parents. They took us out to places to eat, lots of different places. We were exposed to all kinds of cuisine and dining styles as kids (it helped that we spent most of our lives overseas) that informed our broad tastes and interests now. Since I had REALLY good parents, we were very well-behaved when we went out to eat. Our largest transgression was usually reading at the table before the food got there.

I'm a parent now, and I want to be a REALLY good parent, too. So I'm going to take my daughter to lots of interesting and different places to eat, exposing her to all kinds of food from all kinds of cultures. I'm going to do this without regard to anyone who thinks I should do otherwise. See, I care a lot more about her than any of you. I'm more interested in raising someone who is as interested in food and dining as I am (remember, I got that way because of where and what I ate as a kid) and who has as broad a frame of reference as possible than I am with the delicate sensibilities of someone sitting at the next table. Also, since I'm trying to be a REALLY good parent, my daughter is going to be raised, like I was, to respect the dining environment and experience, to have fun but behave appropriately. I've met plenty of adults in plenty of restaurants (see my previous post) who apparently didn't have the experiences in restaurants that my girl is going to have and, as a result, still don't quite seem to know how to behave.

For those of you who are concerned, here is only a partial list, in no particular order, of places we will be dining (eventually) with our daughter. Feel free to jot these down so you can avoid them, cuz we ain't gonna. Again, I would refer you to the list of dog-friendly places as alternatives.

The Helmand, Nanami, Indigma, Cinghiale, Pazo, Mezze, The Wharf Rat, Clementine, Iggies, Meli, Ze Mean Bean, Lebanese Taverna, The Chameleon, Baltimore Pho, b, pretty much all the Indian places, Parkside, Joe2, One World, City Cafe, Koco's, Minato, Thai Arroy, Red Maple Saigon Remembered, the Hamilton Tavern, Ambassador... Like I said, it's just a partial list.

Oh, but you can have Fogo de Chao. Probably.

Oh, we'll also occasionally be appearing at "suburban" type places, like Paneera, Noodles and Co, Qdoba, etc, but I'm sure you already avoid all those places.

So! Let's keep talking about kids and restaurants! Cuz come on, it NEVER gets old! In fact, maybe we could just start a whole new blog devoted to just that topic! There could be a rotating panel of complaining writers! Think of the possibility!

Plus, then the rest of us could just come here and talk about other stuff.

Wow, I nominate sean's comment for the next Comment of the Week!

and yes, Red Maple Saigon Remembered is a new fusion fusion restaurants - they've fused fusion with fusion.

sean Hall, you are wrong about my parents. But, I've already told my dining as a child stories here multiple times, no point in doing it again.

And for the millionth time, well-behaved children are fine. Most aren't, and it is really their parents I want to saute.

Lissa, you and I know our respective points of view and opinions. I was only commenting on your comments, not on your thoughts or unspoken words. Also, I said what I said because I know you have a sense of humor and that you understand mine - the words were written with a smile, not a frown.

And we completely agree on the parents issue. Sorta like how there are well-behaved dogs and poorly-behaved dogs. We blame the owners!

(PS: I have two dogs, and we have taken them to restaurants and bars that allowed them.)

nothing adored - couldn't be further from the truth!!! :)

I can sympathize with both Lissa and sean Hall. I have seen kids cause tons of problems in my place, but only because their parents turn a blind eye to things and let them. I have also seen kids be really pleasant customers, in some cases nicer, easier and more polite than their parents.

I am also the parent of a 5 year old girl, and much like sean Hall I try to expose her to a variety of cuisines, with varying degrees of success. I also try to stress how to behave in a restaurant and why (safety, comfort of others, etc.)

And to get a "shill" in, sean Hall, my daughter loves having some Binkert's sausages when she comes to TBA...:^)

Here's a suggestion: Next time you're in a restaurant with an unpleasant child, just remind yourself that that kid will be paying for your Social Security benefits someday. That might take a little of the sting out of the situation.

RE - restaurant development in suburbs vs. a city... A lot of it has to do with who is doing the development. Growth locations in the past decade are new construction projects done by reigional or national developers who have relationships with restaurants (or their brokers) from their other projects.

For their part, regional and national chains are good at marketing themselves, know how to work with a developer to build out a space, and can typically afford higher rents.

There is some of this kind of development in cities (like in Harbor East), but not as much. What cities do have is older buildings with, often, challenging spaces to develop. It's easier to put up a box than rehab something that may not meet ADA requirements or have a good place to accept deliveries.

What's ironic is the degree to which suburban development is trying to emulate what you find in a city - creating a fake main street in the middle of what used to be farm land, for example. I'm talking to you White Marsh and Hunt Valley.

@ sean Hall: now you know what they say you when you assume...

my parents actually took me to many fine dining restaurants as a child, with great success. i think my aversion to most things kid-centric is that i have an expectation of how children should behave, based on past experience, but am constantly disappointed by the reality. as child, every meal was a manners lesson, whether we ate formally for a holiday meal, casually in the kitchen, or desperately at fast food stop in b/w sports games, dance recitals, etc... i don't mean to bore you with details, but let's just say that we were fortunate enough to have parents who gave a d-mn. they both worked hard jobs, long hours and could have easily brushed off meal time as just one more thing to do that day. instead, meal time was family time no matter the time or place.

really, my original comment was facetious. i don't expect to receive a fine-dining experience at chuck-e cheese, but i do in restaurants/bistros/pubs designated as such. if someone enters with their kid, i can usually tell how it will go by looking at their parents. you can tell if the parent is engaged with their kid and that usually leads to a good experience.

sean Hall & volker: judging by the thoughtful comments you leave on this blog, i'd imagine that you are the parents i'd be happy to see with their children when i'm out dining. you're the type for whom i would happily make room at our table. i think lissa said it best and most succinctly: well-behave children are fine.

ps. thanks sean Hall, but i don't want Fogo either

thanks 21224! my comments were also mostly facetious - like lissa noted, I don't know anything about your parents, etc. i'm glad nobody seems to have been offended by what I said.

heh. actually, i'd be curious to try fogo at some point just to witness the sheer excess of meat (which I don't really eat).

oh, and for those of you keeping score, Sean Hall = sean. my browser was doing something weird with my rss feeds and attached my last name to my posts. hmph.

caching hack - i think that's what my browser was doing! synchronicity, man...

sean, one of these days, you have to get a Facebook account and look me up. Then I can inflict dog pictures on you.

One of my fonder memories is of the waiter who bought me a Shirley Temple because he was impressed with my behaviour when I was about 8. At the library, I used to tell children who behaved well how pleased I was with them, and offer to show them my servers in the staff room.

I'm not a parent (for which, I am sure, we are all grateful), but I suspect that rewarding good behaviour not only gives a kid something to be proud of, but also leads to well-behaving kids.

Maybe we need to bring back the Burger King style paper crowns, and restaurant staff could give them to well-behaved children at the end of a meal.

At our D@L sunday supper I'll work on getting some paper crowns for the well behaved members of the sandbox.

The poorly behaved ones will get a glass of Merlot.

i still prefer the paper pirate hats at long john silver's.

dining around kids can be bad but not as bad as when mindless parents park strollers in front of each other and converse right in the middle of crowded aisles of the jfx farmer's market. ugh! lay a five spot on the homeless guy at the entrance and ask him to watch the lil tike for 10 minutes for pete's sake. it's a farmers market not a tea social! bah!

I'm taking my son's Cub Scout troop to Cingiale this Sunday for an early dinner. It's part of the new push to become more enlightened about other cultures and foods. Apparently Pizza Hut doesn't count. They worked out a special menu for us. Every little terror needs to try five new foods to earn their merit badge. This should be fun for a group used to chicken fingers, fries and burger. Wish me luck. Stinkin' badges.

Hey Jim no kid will be paying my SS benefits because I am sure by that time the government will figure out we saved to much money for retirement(our own responsible behavior and living within our means) and will give it to someone who was not responsible

As for poor behaved kids. I have two kids who are late teens. Could not stand them in a restaurant when they misbehaved and I sure don't want to be around someone else's. Walked out many a time over the years. It used to kill us when we got a sitter every Saturday to have a date night and we would be seated next to unruly kids in a nice place

There are some suburban places that are delightful, Harriman house, North Star etc. I think the problem with the child factor is that people's precious snowflakes have yet to learn the concept of what is correct public behavior or "best" behavior. I always went to Harriman House for my birthday and ordered lobster and a half dozen oysters.. at 4-7. One other thing: past a certain hour kids get tired. They can't behave perfectly when it's past their bedtime and service is going at a snail's pace. For the consideration of all involved, keep it brief or get a sitter. Also, parents, take a good hard look at their behavior. If you were out and about, would you be irritated with the way your kids are acting? Does the baby have colic? is your 4 year old trying out new words that you wish they hadn't learned yet? is it 11 pm and bedtime is 8? Don't be that person you don't like.

Lissa, I'm on FB! I've got some good dog pics, too...

Asso- hides: my new line of donkey skin bloomers.

sean, you need to join the D@L group! It is the only group you need on Facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=174434445092&ref=ts

So do other lurkers, regulars and transitional folks. Not that a lot happens there, but it is where you can communicate with other sandboxers without bothering Elizabeth.

Lisa, done! Thanks!

21224, you basically live in the "white marsh of the city" based on your name so i love that you are horrified by the burbs... canton is one of the blandest city neighborhoods in baltimore or any other area. and i suspect you will have children one day, and you may find yourself lightening up a little about your oh so sacred dining experiences.

There are some suburban places that are delightful, Harriman house, North Star etc

I'm pretty sure the North Star is closed. At least it looks closed, and I drive by it all the time.

I'm talking about the North Star at the end of 795. Maybe there is another one.

Yep, North Star has been closed for quite some time now.

sdr, 21224 covers Patterson Park, Highlandtown, Baltimore Highlands and some other neighbourhoods that are *not* Canton.

I still don't see what where someone lives has to do with parents who don't properly teach and supervise their children.

Guilty.. ( i spend most of my time out and about in the city)...i was thinking of the joint that is a bit further up the road.. Full Moon? i think... the one that the parking lot looks like a glorious harley dealership. ( Been there once, nice experience, good vibe to the crowd.)
I was at Friends a few months ago, and a delightful little boy ( all of about three) walked up to me and did the "pick me up" arms. (Weirdest thing ever. I chalk it up to looking somewhat like a cartoon character.) However, he and his father were the best behaved persons in venue at the time.
Chain confession time: I liked now defunct Hops in OM restaurant park, possibly because it was semi-deserted and a great place to write. Not as child friendly as say, Red Robin, but between quarter eating toy vending arcade type games and truly trying acoustics ( it's LOUD in there.. and just when you think you can't take it anymore, it's someone's birthday, so they round up the on waitstaff to sing happy birthday) Hops was the winner. It was a good "starter" intro to "this is how we behave in public" Lax enough to deal with tantrum, formal enough to get a point across.

Meekrat, I liked Hops too. It was always quiet (which is probably why it's gone, I guess) and you could get a nice steak dinner at a great price.

Another Green Turtle is supposed to be going there right now and opening soon.

ANOTHER Green Turtle? i mean this in humor, and a local owned chain making good is great and all, but ANOTHER ONE? There's one is westminster!
The thing that killed Hops is that they started in with the fry everything and microwave it. It was easy to hear from the ladies room.. real cooking does not "ding"; and i can tell the difference between fry to temp then put grill marks on or an actual grill cook. Sad really, there where some really cool people that worked there.

Meekrat - I was thinking the same thing about the Green Turtle. They are taking over the state. I had forgotten that they opened one in Westminster also.

Minister seager - Cleetus' religious rocker name (spelling close enough!).

Meekrat, I know! Another one! Also, about Hops, I know I'm "slightly" paranoid that when people find out what I love, they stop having it; but... They got rid of the in-house made chips that were awesome and got rid of the gumbo that I got probably once a week for like a year because I loved it so much!

Hey, maybe they were owned by Aramark!

Joyce, you just have to start telling people you hate everything!

It probably just means that they can't afford city rent.. lameee i liked the fell's location!

Link spam at 2:27 AM! (It's shilling what's probably another Chinese counterfeit footwear site.)

mr hpmstd, i thought your item about the nazi cat golfers was hilarious. would that we would see more wit and less crossing guard. surely you have that in you ;-)

I look at the most recent comments and the top five are hmpstd screaming about Spam. What kind of egomaniac are you? Just let it be and nobody has to look at it or your infantile attention-getting hissy fits. criminy already!!!! look at me look at me!!!!