I'm not too concerned.

Nüb shills generally don't stick.

RoCK has the respect of people who matter, and that's been more than sufficiently demonstrated, I think.

If we see some of these others around again, I'll eat my shoe. Or go back to Ra. I see it as a lateral move.

Early adopters take a proprietary attitude about things the newbie doesn't even know exist.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/newbie.htm

I call bs, MrRational. This is about RoCK being attacked for not agreeing with some peoples' views of a restaurant. It is not about people who've been here for awhile circling the wagons and driving folks away.

This place is pretty friendly, if you don't show up using leet speak and telling the rest of us how we are stupid, uninformed wankers.

Many of us who may now be D@L "regulars" started as longtime lurkers before we dared to post a comment. Lurking has its advantages, not the least of which is the ability to get acquainted with the day-to-day workings of the blog. By the time I made my first post, I already felt that I "knew" people such as RtSO and Dahlink (not to mention EL, of course). More importantly, I think I had acquired a reasonably good idea of how far to go, and how far not to go, in making any given comment. (For examples of the latter, see this post from Christmas 2007.) Would-be newbie posters would be well advised to get a feel for the netiquette of this blog before jumping in.

Alas, this is a recurring problem and periodically over the years [OMG! years!] Lady Elizabeth has had to remind the participants how to behave. As has been said before,it's like herding cats or kindergartners.

That being said, some folks are acting as if they were writing on their personal blogs where their opinion is the only one tolerated. It is the scorch-and-burn blogging which has no place in a conversation about something as apolitical as food [and our other tangents].

I have always been proud of the tenor of the discussion on D@L, but it is disheartening.

I've always thought it telling of this community that it's managed to remain so civil -- nay, cordial -- over a topic that can be so divisive as food.

Food is democratic, yes. Everyone, even the most ascetic puritan can enjoy it. But that also means that everyone has their own preferences and tastes when it comes to dining.

I like Coke. You like Pepsi. We can argue ad infinitum about the particular merits of these preferences, but there isn't really a path to objectivity, much less consensus over something that's inherently relative.

It seems like the longtimers on D@L take this for granted. But that respect, deference, and civility is learned.

I'll admit it, and more heartedly here than in that other thread. I just don't like Ra. The food is middling. What people are paying for is the "scene", which I just don't care for. I'm done with the pretenses of my twenties, and I don't need to put up with distasteful crowds and lackadaisical service to remind me of that.

I get that there are no shortage of people who are fans of the place; it wouldn't be so popular otherwise. Personally, I don't Ra more, in part because the people who are fans of it, I don't care for. There, I said it.

I'm not denigrating the tastes of the people who do enjoy it, but don't pretend that the place somehow transcends taste; I can name at least a couple of joints in the city that have better fish, which is what I'm really interested in when I go for sushi in this town.

I miss my old job when I could sit at a desk for a couple of hours a day and check in with the blog. When I saw this post and realized how many there were between this and that, I got a little blue.

some folks are acting as if they were writing on their personal blogs where their opinion is the only one tolerated

That's not what I'm seeing. The objection isn't to new people disagreeing with a regular, but rather to the nasty , uncivil, and intolerant tone of some of the disagreement.

It just occurred to me that I might not actually be properly understanding what bra1nchild is trying to say.

I've tried to think of a different way to say it, but basically, yeah, what Lissa said!

Especially the "circling the wagons" part cause that made me smile!

Count me as one of the lurkers who only comments when prompted by a lack of diversity in opinion. Though it can be discouraging: any positive comment about an establishment is immediately dismissed as a comment from a “shill”, an owner, a cook’s mother, etc. Such dismissive responses do as much to stifle discourse than any other.

I pointed out some issues I saw with Robert’s reviews and subsequent comments, and to his credit he seemed very receptive. Though Robert's post was entertaining, I like substantive evaluations that are all-encompassing. Ok, so the atmosphere isn’t one you like. Certainly a valid opinion, but let’s also hear about other aspects about the place (and, Elizabeth, I would discourage people from criticizing dishes that weren’t tried). There are many complexities that go into the dining experience, so a myopic view of only the atmosphere (and a minimal mention of some food) seems to be a disservice.

I try not to discourage on this blog. Let me repeat. These are not reviews, and they are not done by experts. I'm sorry if some of you see them that way, but they are guest posts by other readers. Obviously I have no way of judging whether you or anyone else has tried dishes he/she criticizes or defends. I understand if you want a more substantive review, but this blog isn't the place to look for it. What I would encourage others to do is fill in the gaps you see in his description, not criticize him because it isn't all encompassing. It was a light-hearted look at one evening by someone who was a tagalong for his wife. It was a place to start the discussion, as so many entries are on this blog. EL

Most of the newbies who contribute comments share the convivial, congenial climate of this blog. And before long, they're regulars. Sure, there are a few people who can't have a friendly disagreement without getting personal. But they don't hang around these premises for long.

What is difficult about this format is space. Sometimes this means there isn't enough room to go into everything, particulary when it is a very large tasting menu.

When I'm thinking about what I'm going to write about, I usually have a ton of things I want to cover. The problem is once I start putting the ideas down on the screen I find I'm using a lot more words than I woudl have thought.

So, perhaps I could just speak about the highlights. Write something with a bunch of quick stamenents. I had the fish. It was good. I had the steak. It was salty.

The problem is I don't want to write like that. I'm really trying to tell a story about food more than just reporting information about food. Sometimes this means I can't cover everything and still have the flow I'm looking for.

Anyway, as to newbies I don't want to discourage anyone from commenting or writing. I think people should be free to comment whether they're regulars, lurkers or just discovered the blog today; however, just like they say at Ravens games: Don't be a jerk.

I like to have a variety of opinions and EVERYONE here has an opinion. When EL says here is a guest post I think, another point of view, another experience. Way to go. While I do like EL style, phrasing and objectivity I like to hear from someone else on occasion. I find it sad that a person would personally attack someone because someone doesn't like their comment about xyz. It is just their opinion, they are entitled to it just as you are entitled to yours.
I would suggest that maybe two tries to a restaurant then write a review. Everyone has an off night or bad service. Unless you get food poisoning.

Just in case it isn't obvious, RoCK wasn't writing a review of RA. He was describing for our entertainment a press event his wife took him to, something the rest of us will probably never get to experience. (I, for instance, can never go to these. EL

If you're looking for substantive evaluations that are all-encompassing, you can type in the name of a restaurant in the search box at the top of this page. For instance, if you type in RA Sushi, you will find a comprehensive, professional review written by Elizabeth Large on March 2, 2008. If you're looking for a more recent appraisal, you could click on the link "wife" that RoCK conveniently embedded in his post for a synopsis of the same event he attended. Also, you can get to that same site by clicking on Baltimore Restaurant Examiner under the Blogroll.

It just occurred to me that I might not actually be properly understanding what bra1nchild is trying to say.?

What I meant was just what you said, the nasty , uncivil, and intolerant tone of some of the disagreement. As my mother used to say, "It's not what you say, it's the way that you say it."

Though I check the blog daily, I hardly ever comment because of the frequent condescending tone and the flippant dismissal of suggestions and comments.

Though I check the blog daily, I hardly ever comment because of the frequent condescending tone and the flippant dismissal of suggestions and comments.

Not to shill for EL -- well, too much -- but I've found this is generally one of the most thoughtful, well-considered, and civil online communities I've seen since I popped my first AOL disk in during the early 90's.

I've seen knitting forums get more heated than this.

I can agree with both Barb Fleiss' comment and with El Generalissimo''s response.
On the one hand, I agree with B.F. in that I find this blog to have an "in crowd" that is separate and distinct from "everybody else", and I definitely agree that there is often a tone that makes very clear who is in the club and who has not yet become a member.

I also agree with E.G. that this distinction between "regulars" and "others" seldom rises to the level of flames or even impoliteness. That said, even if the insiders are polite, it can still be off-putting to feel that one is an outsider.

When I read this blog, I feel like somebody who is the date of a person going to their high school reunion - everybody's friendly and having a good time, but it's clear that those who went to the high school are a category apart from the dates and spouses who are also there.

That's not anybody's fault, but it does feel *to me* less welcoming than other food related blogs or boards I monitor or contribute to - YMMV. It seems to have become about the banter between the group of regulars first, and food second, to a degree that other similar outlets don't.

Whether that's good or bad is a matter of personal opinion, and whether one wishes to put the effort in to become recognized as a regular.

Why can't we all just get along?

It takes about two witty or particularly interesting comments to become a regular here.

Yes, there are in jokes and some of us know each other pretty well. Some of us have taken to hanging out together off the blog. I'm not sure how, short of anyone who becomes a regular never commenting again, this could be stopped, even if everyone agreed it was off-putting or bad.

I'm probably the crankiest regular. I'm not going to be welcoming to folks who don't have something (anything) to contribute. Banging on RoCK because he isn't a professional restaurant reviewer is simply silly.

On the other hand, I try to go out of my way to be welcoming to people who make a serious effort to contribute, even if I don't like them or think they are being a bit silly. The other regulars are better at that than I am.

But, seriously, what would you have the regulars do? Never disagree with anyone? Validate every post no matter how silly? Or, are there concrete, logical, reasonable things we could and should be doing? If so, I'd like to hear about them, and I promise to think about them.

Warthog, very well said. It's a shame that the clique of regulars can be so discouraging to outsiders.

Lissa,

If your comment is in response to mine, I'm not suggesting that anybody "do" anything, other than perhaps be aware that those outside the club may not be as comfortable as you assume. That's it - just be aware that others may not feel as much a part of the club as the regulars may think.

As you note, once a community has formed it's own norms, it takes on a life of its own and one can't "force" it to change. I don't believe there's anything the regulars could do, individually or as a group, even if everybody wished to.

The only complication in this situation is that the Sun as the "sponsoring and hosting" entity may at some point have issues if the "regulars" on this or any other blog cost them business, whether from advertisers or from those who read the paper or the web site. I know that EL has declared RoCK's post to not be a review, but that doesn't change the fact that somebody, somewhere, will read it and view it as "a review that appeared on the Sun's website", and therefore take RoCk's views as being those of the Sun, or representative of the content and quality level that the Sun tacitly approves. That may not be correct, but in some cases, perception trumps facts. But that's for the Sun to decide and deal with.

And for the record, I don't equate an "attack" on the nature or content of the "not-a-review" with an "attack" on RoCK. In looking at that thread, I took most of it as the former, not the latter.

I have to disagree. You are only an outsider here if you want to be, unlike people who have attended high school together. I think this is more that the people who want this to be a more structured, stay-on-the-food-topic blog, as Warthog said he was in an earlier comment, aren't as comfortable here. I don't comment much, but I don't feel that when I do have something to say it's ever dismissed.

gosseyn,

I agree that the high school reunion metaphor has an element of "facts one can't change" that weakens it (so sue me), but I disagree as to whether being a regular here is a strictly an if you want to be, you will be proposition. In rereading the RoCK on RA thread, I thought the regulars were far more snide about the newbies than the newbies were about RoCK's post. As I sadi, I took most of it as comments on the "not-a-review" not as attacks on RoCK, but some of the "regular" comments seemed snarkier and more targetted at the poster, not the content. But again, it's a matter of personal opinion.

As I noted previously, though, the whole issue is complicated by the fact that this is not a private individual's blog. This is nominally a food blog, run by the Sun Restaurant Critic, on the Sun's web site, not on somebody's personal blog and web page. This leads to certain expectations on the part of a first-time reader.

There's nothing wrong with any blog taking on whatever community norms work for the individuals involved. Where the complications may arise is when the line between "guest posts", group banter, and Official Sun "product" blurs, and when the distinction between an official "review" by EL, a blog musing by EL, a "guest post that's not a review" and other such gets lost.

But as I said, it's the Sun's site, EL's blog, and the clubhouse of the regulars. if it works for all those parties, that's fine.

So far, so good. :-) EL

No, Warthog, I wasn't responding to you. You are one of the folks I've given up on. You have a tendency, when you weigh in, to treat this like it is your personal blog, and to go on at great length about things I'm not interested in.

But, if Elizabeth doesn't mind, I've no right to object. I just usually don't bother reading your comments. Don't worry. You aren't the only one.

With regards to the semantics of the term “review”, Warthog's right: It has the effect of a review, in that people will likely make a decision to dine or not dine at the place based on one person's perspective.

I don't see how it's “silly” to attack content in the post, when what Robert did was attack the establishment. Now, I have no connection to Ra or any restaurant for that matter, but Robert was presumably served by a waitstaff and cooking team that worked to prepare his meal. Unfortunately, he made no mention of this. The entire focus was on his displeasure for the atmosphere. That doesn't seem fair to anyone who works in any capacity at the place that might be doing a good job (heck, explaining why they weren't doing a good job would have been more insightful than what was offered). Ultimately, it didn't come across as a story about food; it came across as a man who has a very specific idea about what a sushi restaurant is, and why Ra didn't meet those criteria.

Interesting that so many people talk about developing communities on the Web, but when one, like this one, actually develops, there is whining about insiders and outsiders.

The way that people become part of a continuing community is to look around and observe what the conventions are. The conventions here are that the people who comment can be blunt about their opinions, but they treat one another with civility and respect.

Introducing oneself to the community by being snotty to its members -- probably not the ideal approach.

I meant to add that I can relieve any anxiety that comments here might have an adverse effect on the commercial success of The Sun. During my time on the staff, at least, Dining@Large was one of the most popular features on the Web site, frequently outpolling even the sports blogs.

Wow, I'm out of town for a few days, sit down to catch up on the blog, and I can't believe all I missed! :(
I think I lost my appetite

(I posted this under "Rock On RA" , but it really is more appropriate here, so I apologize for the repetition. I do feel it bears repeating.)

As I've mentioned before, I was a lurker for almost a year before I posted my first comment in March 2009. From the beginning, I was welcomed and treated with respect, even if my opinions were different. It didn't take long at all for this "newbie" to feel accepted as a "regular".

Although I post less frequently now, for a number of reasons, I have noticed more people who post just to blast insults and drop snotty comments. It's obvious that some of them don't bother to read or fully understand before they launch into an attack. It makes me sad to see the blog which engaged in some of the most entertaining and free-wheeling exchanges losing the civility that was a hallmark of this community.

I'm not a newbie, just not a frequent poster. RoCK I know you won't be intimidated. I look at his posts on places he's been as an FYI of someone who thought enough of a place (good or bad) to take the time to share with other people interested in food/restaurants. I appreciate that.

If there were water
And no RoCK
If there were RoCK
And also water
And water
A spring
A pool among the RoCK
If there were the sound of water only
Not the cicada
And dry grass singing
But sound of water over a RoCK
Where the hermit-thrush sings in the pine trees
Drip drop drip drop drop drop drop
But there is no water

I thought about calling for a group hug, but the last time I did that I was roundly ignored.

Um, we were ALL newbies at some point, so we be respectful, whether or not we agree with a post. On the other hand, when someone posts a thoroughly nasty comment, that person deserves to be soundly chastised.

Now everyone must have some thought
That`s going to pull them through somehow
Well the fires are raging hotter and hotter
But the sisters of the sun are going to RoCK me
on the water now

RoCK me on the water
Sister will you soothe my fevered brow
RoCK me on the water
I`ll get down to the sea somehow

Bubbles--Why don't you just shut the hell up?

[No! Just kidding!]

I'm lightly touching all of you on the arm, smiling, and remembering our good times together. A toast! Bartender, another round. Let's be happy.

Ah, that's what I like to hear. :-) EL

I HATE newbies. I was never a newbie.

Y'all crack me up. Even though I've posted before, it's been quite a while, so am I now a Newbie II?

Nope, Tweety Cat. Some of us have memories slightly longer than that of the American public

Wow Lissa, do these powers come from EL or just ooze out of the screen? I could sure use this memory aid.

Tweety Cat, I think you get memory boosts for each line of T.S. Elliot you quote here.

Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky

Alas, misunderstood again. I like to talk about food, the snarky stuff makes my tummy hurt. I love RoCK's entry and posted there as well. I love the group and I think I'm "newbie". Meaning, I don't post often (or clever) enough to be in the "in" crowd. But I LOVE the warm fuzzy food banter...not that other stuff that happened around this. The most controversial thing I've ever posted was about the annoucement of the ending of bon appetite magazine. :(

Bubbles, the best way to be understood is to post more.

T.S., it is "where the evening..."

the best way to be understood is to post more.

True, up to a point.

We're lucky to have EL. Head over here to see how the food blogger for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch cost a blogger their job.

Mlle Quelquejeu, we all know I don't know where the boundary of bad taste is.

The last time I posted here, I got slammed for offering a source for information on a divisive topic. I did not express an opinion on that topic any more than EL did, but another poster decided to dismiss my contribution because they felt strongly about their opinion and decided my position must be contrary to theirs. One needs a thick skin on the internet, but that's the kind of thing that discourages participation.

I went back and looked at the post you mentioned. Although you are more of a regular than the people who commented on your comment and I don't think they meant to come off as rude as it sounded, it's instructive to see what bothers people. A good example of why I say be careful. In person they might have been smiling and you would know it was a joke, which is how I think they meant it. I can also see why you felt slammed. It's easy to feel people are being thin skinned until you've been the recipient. EL

You may ask yourself
How do I work this?
You may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
You may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house!
You may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife!...
Water dissolving... and water removing
There is water... at the bottom of the ocean
Remove the water
Carry the water
Remove the water from the bottom of the ocean...

Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground

Into the blue again/into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones/there is water underground
Letting the days go by/into the silent water
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground

You may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
You may ask yourself
Where does that highway lead to?
You may ask yourself
Am I right?... Am I wrong?
You may say to yourself
My God!... what have I done?

When I was a relative newbie here Sam Sessa made fun of my name. Do I make fun of his name? No--but just to be safe, I changed my name.

Heh.

"Sessa" makes me think of a filter-feeder at the bottom of an aquarium.

Which isn't an inaccurate description of the Baltimore nightlife beat, I suppose.

I'd suggest that "newbie" is just another example of power rhetoric labeling, like "hon," or "boy," or "gal," or "jethro."

As the sage says: "Do something twice, and it's a tradition." After first encounter, newbies are no longer new...

When I first started posting here, one or two Sand Creatures said "Welcome," and I thought: "What planet have I invaded to be 'welcomed' as an ousider."

Silly, really.

Who owns cyberspace? Not me. Not you.

I'd suggest that "newbie" is just another example of power rhetoric labeling, like "hon," or "boy," or "gal," or "jethro."

As the sage says: "Do something twice, and it's a tradition." After first encounter, newbies are no longer new...

When I first started posting here, one or two Sand Creatures said "Welcome," and I thought: "What planet have I invaded to be 'welcomed' as an ousider."

Silly, really.

Who owns cyberspace? Not me. Not you.

Cleatus, would you suggest, though, that in order to be really an insider here, you have to be gently touched?

Or tell me your name and kneel down beside me, write a smiley face on my check, and I'm totally yours.

Dahlink: I love it when you talk like that.

OMGosh, any of the comments that involve being "touched lightly" just crack me up. That server/patron dialogue was the best entry, absolutely hilarious.

In regards to RoCK, I enjoy all of the guest blogs, it is nice to have a different perspective. I was almost afraid to write in today, I am shy and only occasionally post, but I enjoy the fun and light banter that takes place here and like to feel a part of it. It is sad when other people attack for no discernable reason except maybe to see their own comments on the screen.

Ruby, I'm glad you joined in. We need more people to lightly touch.

Yes, Ruby, I hope you hang around. You've already submitted two gracious comments so you are now a regular.

Thanks Lissa and Laura Lee! I feel warm and fuzzy already. Light touches all around!

Captcha: raves force

It's nice to end a somewhat rocky week with more positive, jovial comments.

I recall seeing your name in the past Ruby. Hope you grace us with your presence more often!

Added bonus - An owl sighting on the "Just saying" post. Good to see!

I don't have anything to say, but the captcha was too good to pass up: pits Moynahan.

Hal - almost made me choke on my water! Hysterical. Sounds like a name from the old time gangster movies. Can't you hear James Cagney now..."Hey Pits Moynahan, see. You hand over that money right now or I'll..."

Mine wasn't as good, "seckel 76ers,"

This captcha thing freaks me out. After I type in the captcha, I feel like i have to raise my hand, yell "Wassssssssup?" but then nobody slaps it back. So now the blog has left me hangin. Not cool.

Owl Meat GoneSoLong,

Deal with it; I'm collecting all those captchas to use in my next fractured fable.

It does take getting used to though. I don't like submitting comments without previewing. Guess I'll just have to think twice before I hit post.

What a way to end a long week--Owl has reappeared (are you just teasing us, OMG?) and Laura Lee promises another fractured fable--with captchas even! I can't wait!

Bows football!

Someone must shown the Owl Signal over Gotham to bring about his return.

Anyway, I'm glad to see the Owl back

This indecision’s bugging me
Esta indecision me molesta
If you don’t want me, set me free
Si no me quieres, librame
Exactly who’m I’m supposed to be
Dime que tengo que ser
Don’t you know which clothes even fit me?
¿sabes que ropas me quedan?
Come on and let me know
Me tienes que decir
Should I cool it or should I blow?
¿me debo ir o quedarme?

Captcha: speckled ungirdled

(That's creepy)