"...fancy places where you wouldn't think of taking kids."
And where are these havens of maturity?
List please!

"Last year, another Maryland chef, Jill Snyder, competed on season five of the Bravo reality show. At the time she worked as executive chef of the Red Maple in Mount Vernon, but has since left."

Am I the only one who's recognized her working currently at Woodberry Kitchen?

I'm glad to know that. I know she worked with Spike Gjerde before. Thanks. EL

And where are these havens of maturity?

You're supposed to hop on the bike and find them for us, jl!

JL-

They don't exist. They should. And some restaurants try very hard to be that place. The ones that that come to my mind are The Prime Rib, Charleston, Mortons,Oceanaire, and Da Mimmo. Maybe also The Brass Elephant, but that could be just my reaction to the decor.

But...there is always some parent that believes their "little angel" is just fine at any restaurant at any age. I recently saw a 12 year old boy at The Prime Rib. He was not wearing a jacket (of course), and one parent was already hissing "now behave" at him as they walked in! Our waiter was kind enough to help us move after the kid was seated at the table next to us. That was a minor downer, too, though, as we had been sitting right in front of the piano.

My parents took me to fine restaurants when I was a small child, and I took my children. My wife and I did insist that the children behave. They were not allowed to run around, and cause other diners not to enjoy their meals. Children can behave if the parents expect them to.

Our family patronized both "family" and "nice" restaurants. We three kids were expected to use the manners that we'd been taught at home. If we didn't, Dad would quietly rap the offender once on the knee with his knuckle, so it didn't take us long to get the point, and we behaved. Of course, that was a half century ago. I don't see many kids who experience discipline in the home, more's the pity.

Having your table moved because a 12-year old sat down at the table next to you? A 12-year old?

I can understand a noisy or messy infant or toddler, but a young man?

My kids are 13, 9, and 6, and besides the expense, and maybe the style of food, I wouldn't hesitate to take them to any restaurant. They sit quietly, engage in normal levels of conversation, and don't bother anybody else in the restaurant. At least I've always assumed that people are just as tolerant of well behaved children as of well-behaved adults.

I would be insulted and incredulous if I sat down in a restaurant with my kids and somebody actually got up and moved to another table!

I was curious about the same thing. You didn't say that the boy acted badly at the table.

Sorry, Pokey, but if a 12-year-old had to be reminded to behave as his group entered the Prime Rib, then I would doubt his ability to behave. Moreover, he failed to comply with the Prime Rib's dress code. I think FLIRV was right to move his table -- I'm only sorry that he couldn't get the offending group to be moved elsewhere (preferably out of the place).

Dress code for kids? Give me a break. Show me a 12 year old that doesn't have to be reminded to behave and I'll show you a fully-grown little person.

Whether you like it or not, NEPA, the Prime Rib has a definite dress code. Anybody who doesn't care to comply with that dress code should look for the nearest Outback.

So, let's see. Nobody disciplines their children anymore, except for when they remind the kid to behave upon entering a restaurant, which is just beyond offensive to the other diners. Noted!

My wife was eating at fancy restaurants when she was a kid. Then again, my wife sold out Chicago Symphony Hall for 10 straight days when she was a kid. (This is a true story. She was a child violin prodigy)

I, however, did not find my way to any fancy restaurans until I was an adult. My youthful dining experiences mostly took place at the Bonanza in Aberdeen. I normally got the buffet. Ok, I always got the buffet.

"...the Prime Rib has a definite dress code. Anybody who doesn't care to comply with that dress code should look for the nearest Outback."

No middle ground huh?

I hope that attitude is tongue-in-cheek!

Hey RoCK,

I can eat my dinner in a fancy restaurant
But nothing ...
I said nothing can take away these blues,
'Cause nothing compares ...
Nothing compares to you

Of course there is no middle ground with a dress code. What would middle ground be? A jacket, tie and Bermuda shorts?

Most children are not well-behaved. This is the fault of the parents, not the children. This shouldn't be shocking, although I suppose few parents wish to admit their child misbehaves.

I meant, is there no middle ground between an Outback and a fine restaurant that requires a jacket?

MOST children are not well-behaved? Define well-behaved, I guess.

Besides my mellow and well-mannered kids, most of my friends are parents, and when we go out together their kids behave as well, show table manners, stay in their seat, say please and thank you, use a napkin, order their own food politely, etc. And when I go to a restaurant generally the other kids I see are well-behaved as well, even in family chain restaurants where the atmosphere is more lax. For every hyper kid with bad manners or a lousy attitude there are at least 10 that are comporting themselves appropriately. But I think the bad ones stand out more and give the impression that most kids misbehave in restaurants, when they don't

In which restaurants you frequent are you seeing more misbehaving kids than behaving ones?

You must be new here, Pokey. We've gone over this territory again and again. Name me one restaurant in Baltimore that isn't infested with screaming kids. And their parents, who don't seem to hear it at all.

Lissa, it's true I've been visiting the blog for only about 6 months, but have lived in the Baltimore Metro area for 40 years, and I can think of many times I've eaten in a restaurant without screaming kids.

Thinking of my most recent visits, I haven't heard screaming kids at The Helmand, Sabatino's, Bertucci's in Timonium, and the Nautilus Diner (also Timonium.)

Are most of the restaurants you all talk about on here, especially the well-regarded ones, infested with screaming kids? Wouldn't we be reading that in EL's and Richard's reviews?

I've enjoyed reading your posts and banter, but you really sound anti-kid on this one. But then I am pretty new here, so maybe you are!

No worries, I'm just standing up for us parents of good kids!

Don't sweat it Pokey, she's a Klingon.

Yes, there were screaming kids when I was at The Helmand. There was also a kid crawling around under the tables. The other places you mention, I haven't been to.

I've been open that I detest children. More accurately, I don't like parents who don't teach children how to behave in public. However, I'm not the only person here who is distressed by going out to a nice place and having to put up with crying babies, kids throwing food or kids running around the tables. It only takes one to ruin a meal.

Pokey - I agree with your assessment. The confrontational and demeaning comments can be unpalatable in here at times.

I don't mean to be unwelcoming, Pokey. Indeed, I like new people to argue with . What I meant was that this comes up a lot, and we've had a few notable invasions from the mommie blog, accusing us of all not appreciating their natural, childish children.

It gets old.

You totally proved my point!!! Pretentiousness is unbecomming and unwelcoming.

Pokey, you've raised two separate issues, namely, (1) appropriate dress and (2) appropriate behavior.

Dress codes are nothing new, and they aren't limited to restaurants. Tight skirts and stiletto heels may be fine for Friday night, but not for your great-aunt's funeral. The Vatican has a dress code for St. Peter's Basilica, requiring modesty in dress. St. Peter's has statues of the Madonna (a/k/a the Virgin Mary), but that does not authorize women to enter St. Peter's while dressed straight out of Madonna's Like a Virgin. Even so, people who spend hours dressing to comply with a club's "no jeans" rule will think nothing of flouting a restaurant's dress code.

As for behavior, when many of us in the Sandbox (including Lissa) were children, our parents told us in no uncertain terms to behave in restaurants and other public places, or else. You, Pokey, may be similarly conscientious, but the same cannot be said of a great many parents today. A 12-year-old boy, out to dinner with his parents, ought not to have to be reminded to behave as soon as that family crosses the threshold of the restaurant. If he needs better training in that regard, let him work things out at the local Outback first.

It is one thing to take children to dine at Bertucci's, a family-oriented chain which has a kid's menu, and quite another thing to take children to dine at the Prime Rib, with hefty entree prices on its a la carte menu. The fact that both are restaurants doesn't mean that both are appropriate for children. Would you take your 6-year-old to see Oh! Calcutta! just because he/she may have enjoyed The Lion King?

I'm probably more bothered when I see a kid in a bar rather than a high end restaurant. When I'm in a bar I plan on using a lot of profanity, and I don't want my vocabulary constrained by the presence of some damn kid.

Just how is it pretentious to not like loud or otherwise misbehaving children in restaurants, and to be honest about it? Or are you just picking out negative big words, notableM, and using them somewhat randomly? Because I don't think that you mean to say that I couldn't possibly be aware of the behaviour of children in restaurants. Not when it is that obvious.

Especially since this discussion has been about children who do not meet standards. Did you miss the qualifiers?

Hey, I completely understand and agree with how rude it is to ruin other peoples' enjoyment of dinner, or a movie, or even a quiet time in the park, with ill-behaved children. I think (hope) that most of the parents I know have a pretty good understanding of their kids' limits, and don't inflict their kids on other people.

Us parents get just as irritated and dismayed when our meal is ruined by other peoples' little brats, ya know!

hmpstd, we never did hear how that 12-year old kid behaved, so it's hard to tell if the parent's remark was meant as a warning or a reminder. When I take mine into any kind of more adult environment, I generally will remind them to watch their manners, not because I really think they'll whack out, but to kind of reset their "tone"; they may have been playing around in the car, or joshing on the way in, but when we get to the threshold it's "remember...", and they do.

But my personality is such that I almost always challenge generalizations and hyperbole, in both speech and in actions. I really really don't like stereotyping and prejudice. So when I hear "all restaurants are infested with screaming kids" I feel the same way as if somebody said "all X people are like Y..." and I just have to say something!

I also agree with the dress code thing, although I didn't really bring that up, the original poster did. I just thought it was a little snooty to later say "if you can't abide by a dress code, get thee to an Outback (sniff)". I assume the original poster didn't harrumph and get their table moved solely so their meal wouldn't be tarnished by the sight of an unjacketed minor. But if they had their table moved before any actual indicator of misbehavior, but solely because a child arrived at the adjacent table, that's a little snooty as well, and if I had been the parent in that case I'd probably be harrumphing them right back!

And with that, I'll shut up, as obviously this topic has been beaten to death in the past. Have a great weekend all!

Well, well, well....
Children misbehaving (or not)

I too, disdain going to a restaurant and being seated next to oblivious parents of misbehaving children.

However, I must remember that on a last-minute bereavement flight to Balto, my then 10 yr old daughter and I had to be seated seperately. I had an aisle seat 12 rows behind her; she had a center seat. The person (man) sitting next to her was immediately abhored at the thought of flying next to this child and asked for his seat to be moved. The flight attendant informed him "all seats are full, can't move her".
Long story short, at the end of the flight the man approached me to say what a 'wonderful seatmate' my daughter had been on the flight.
So just maybe, you should have waited til that 12 year old showed you his true colors before getting p.o.'d and moving...
JMO

Lone Lady, why on earth didn't the man swap seats with you?

Dahlink, I was wondering that as well.

With all due respect hmpstd, a 12 year old can hardly be considered a "gentleman" as quoted from the dress code statement on the website of the Prime Rib. I stand by my statement that a 12 year old needing reminded to behave is far from a brat hiding under tables. You will never convince me otherwise. And if you do.... well, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

My mom would remind me to behave in restaurants, but it wasn't in the weak way parent's talk to their kids now. There were no attempts to reason with an 8 year old or endless suggestions of time outs. It was usually something along the lines of "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it."

Back when I was growing up, going to a restaurant was such a big deal that us kids knew to be on our best behavior. Especially since dining out was something that happened not that often at all. And as RoCK alluded to, if we misbehaved, there would be hell to pay for our transgressions.

hmpstd, perhaps you are being a bit harsh on Pokey? I do know what you mean about unruly kids and all, but it sounds like Pokey knows that too.

I can't comment on the child's behavior as our waiter was able to put us on the other side of a wall from him. Husband and I were there for my 40th birthday, and I was NOT about to allow a child to interfere. Was it unfair of me to pre-judge the child and his parents? Yes. Will I change my attitude about children in very adult restaurants? No. I have chosen to not have any children of my own; other people's are not my responsibility.

Oh, for heaven's sake - all the fussing about the presence of children on this thread and others really is tiresome. I don't like loud people who wear too much jewelry, or women with cosmetic work and hair extensions, or those who cast their eyes about the dining room looking for potential offensive persons - or any number of other categories of irritating people - but I'd be hard pressed to enjoy an evening out if I allowed the presence of others who are potentially or even likely annoying to interfere with my plans. Focus on your companions, and enjoy yourselves already.

... or people who roll their eyes. :-)

Are there enough high horses in Baltimore for all childless and perfect people who comment on this blog? I used to enjoy the comments, but I now frequently skip them as I know the same people will make the same tired comments about children in restaurants, tipping, shill-alerts, etc. This blog has become way too confrontational, most likely due to the anonymity the internet provides.

most likely due to the anonymity the internet provides

If you don't leave your full name you don't have much call to complain about that.

We're using code names.

Naw, I don't want to know Pete's full name. Then I'd have to send my ninjas out to beat some sense into him. People in 4 states fear their grammar and logic lessons, but they just raised their rates, especially if I have to call them in from Rehoboth.

Gets tiresome dealing with the same complaints.

Dahlink & Hal
The guy wouldn't trade seats with me because he was in an aisle seat; my daughter & I were both in center seats due to last minute booking.
Glad it worked out for him that she behaved though.