Hmm...she's not getting it...

NO! Clearly, she's still as self-centered as she was before the very well-explained posts concerning babies and grown-up meals! That woman self-centeredness is past redemption.

Back in the day, we hired babysitters for the (very) rare - like, my birthday or our anniversary - evenings at Grown Up Restaurants.

A friend of mine was accused of child abuse when her then-undiagnosed son with autism had a fit of nerves and screamed in a restaurant (not one in Baltimore, fyi). She apologized and left with her son. The manager chased after her, then called the police, who arrested her based on the manager's report -- not on any attempt to understand why the child was so upset. She spent thousands of dollars to clear her name, but finally got the diagnosis of autism she needed to get the care her son deserved -- a diagnosis her personal care physician failed to give, claiming she was a bad parent. This is a true story, given as an example of the nightmares parents of children on the autism spectrum experience. The irony of the story was that it was that arrest and a court-mandated examination that led her and her son to receive the diagnosis they needed. He's now mainstreamed and doing well, but remembers how frustrating it was when he was so young (2-3 years old) and could not express why he felt so bad other than by his loud expression of anger.

Don't judge when you don't know the circumstances is a good lesson for all of us to learn.

In reference to the story about the autistic boy: it has absolutely nothing to do with judging, and everything to do with the consideration of others.
Our society is increasingly becoming a "me first and to hell with everyone else" society." When my kids were very young (they are 20 and 22 now) we very rarely went out to eat. If they cried then they were IMMEDIATELY taken to the car. We were not about to ruin others dinners.
Nowadays people think they are entitled to have their former life once they have a baby, and to hell with how it impacts others. It doesn't work. You have to be prepared to change your life for the new arrival.

Well, I went and did my bit for the Sandbox, but its unlikely to do any good. Its remarkable how inconsiderate, thoughtless and ill mannered many parents are when it comes to their little darlings actions. Its this same attitude that seems to have made elementary education so difficult.

I think there is a big difference between taking a newborn to a restaurant and taking toddlers/children to a restaurant. I would never mind an infant in a car-seat sitting in a restaurant. All they do is sleep! Now, I don't think it's appropriate at an upscale restaurant, but fine in a local place or more family friendly restaurant. So certainly not the Prime Rib, but maybe Sobo Cafe. I have toddlers and you'll be happy to know that we go out t 5:00 to our local pizza shop with them, or family night at our favorite place.

I am now going to put on my fire retardant suit and wait for the grenades:)

When I was about 8 and my little brother was about 7, my father took us to 737, a very fancy, revolving restaurant somewhere in Montreal. He had to assure the Maitre D that we knew how to behave properly. I was not party to that conversation.

We were admitted, and since we knew we were being permitted to eat at a grown up restaurant, we were on our best behaviour, saying please and thank you to the waiter, using the right fork (it isn't hard) and all. The view was incredible.

The waiter brought my brother and I Shirley Temples. When my father started to object, the waiter explained that he bought them for us because we were so well-behaved and polite, and he just wanted to give us something.

I still remember him, and I'm still proud that we were able to act like adults.

I fear that today's children won't get to have affirming experiences like that (this wasn't the only one, but it was the only one in a restaurant).

Well, if you go back and re-read it... Imagine if all parents took the advice that was written. If parents really did take their kids during off-peak times, were prepared to make a quick exit if their kid (infant, toddler or teenager, no matter) acted up then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

For the record, I'm the mother of an extraordinarily rambunctious male toddler. On the rare occasion he gets to come out to eat with us it is rarely something other than Panera. Why? Because I don't like fitting my square peg of a toddler into a round whole of adult restaurant etiquette. I'm not worried. He will get there...Eventually. But I am not about to make others suffer for what truly is unnecessary to begin with.

But I know I am in the minority. Oh well. I've been the 'black sheep' all my life. Why stop now?

Well now, Robert, I thought you, I, and possibly even your Book had come to an agreement that well-behaved children (or teeny infants who stay asleep, which is what I originally posted about) might be acceptable in restaurants on certain occasions. I certainly wouldn't endorse allowing kids of any age to run amok, make lots of noise or otherwise behave badly in a restaurant.

My local bagel bakery and coffee shop recently put up a sign "We welcome well-behaved children." While the vast majority of parents and children ARE well-behaved, there are always a few young children who are allowed to run around while Mommy or Daddy order, fix up their coffee, or sit and eat. I don't blame the children.

I say it's time to bring back the concept of Plato's Academy. Children would be taken from the parents at an early age and they would be returned as well behaved and educated adults.

Whether or not society would be better from this option is debateable; however, I do think dining out would be a clear winner.

Ms. Shatzkin, although my lips were tired after reading your entire posting, I realised that you were not giving parents carte blanche, but there are a freighting number of parents who don't get it (or more likely don't see their actions as a problem.) Despite what you might have heard, I like children (the younger ones are more tender, but all need a sauce [sorry, we currently have a joke thread going and on a food blog, what else would say about children?].)

(I'm wondering how much heat I'll get for my post, over there?)

Come by any time. D@L is increasingly looking like a staff meeting at the Sun. This should convince all lurkers to jump on in and post away. Almost anyone (journalist no less) are already being let in. How high can the Sandbox standards be?

As one of the D@L editors, I'm afraid I've been in from the beginning. ;) And now, back to Sandbox regular programming.

I have this MAJOR problem with most parents today, so I will say it for every parent to hear: *Not everyone likes your kids like you do.* You may think crawling through a restaurant on the floor is cute, you may think that crying is adorable and how they show you they need you, and running through stores is "what kids do". Not controlling you child in public is rude, ill-mannered, and way too prevalent.

I vote for child-free restaurants. Not all, just certain ones.

Lissa -- your post brought back pleasant memories of dining long ago in Altitude 737, the rooftop restaurant at 1 Place Ville-Marie in Montreal. I don't think it revolved, but as it's 46 stories in the air (and 737 feet above sea level, hence the name), the views at night were spectacular. One floor below was the club Altitheque 727 (with porthole windows as in a Boeing 727). From what I can tell on the Internet, they seem to have shoved the dining to the side these days in order to emphasize the clubbing -- more's the pity.

Despite what you might have heard, I like children (the younger ones are more tender, but all need a sauce)

Shades of Swift's Modest Proposal!

I am sad to report I could not make it past the 'attack of flatulence' comment. Well played, sir.

Ohhh...I REALLY like Carey Hughes' suggestion of child-free restaurants. I've never heard of a restaurant promoting itself as such, but this could be a good marketing tactic. I hope some restaurant owners are reading. Take note! Take note! I can see it now - No Tot Tuesdays.

This whole line of discussion depresses me to no end. Of all the horrible things going on in the world (and Baltimore), the thing you complain the most about is a child in a restaurant. That's funny. Frankly, I'll take a boisterous kid in a restaurant over one smacking me around on a city bus.

Yes Eloise, it is a sad commentary that the subject of misbehaving kids in restaurants even needs discussed. But since you brought up being attacked by teenagers - what sort of parents do you believe raised these children? Did they teach appropriate behavior at an early age? I would guess not.

I grew up in the 50's when the occasional smack on the butt wasn't considered child abuse. We three siblings were taught at a very early age how to behave. Our family often ate out, at both family-style and at white tablecloth restaurants. If we misbehaved, Dad would give us a quick rap on the knee with his knuckle as a warning Continued bad behavior meant we would leave immediately, with full knowledge that we were REALLY "in for it."

Children can't learn good behavior and acquire manners by intuition or osmosis--their parents must teach them. Sadly, too many parents these days can't be bothered, and boy, does it show! Sigh...end of sermon..

Although I am no expert, it seems to me that Ms. Eloise and those who believe she is correct are the same people who think a 2- or 3-year old has free will and its right to exercise that free will ought not be curtailed by a mere adult.

Thank you, Ms. Barb for well made point.

Thanks, hmpstd. It was, indeed Altitude 737. My memory was faulty, and I should have looked it up.

If my brother an I could behave, I don't know why so many parents today don't take responsibility for their children's behaviour. Screaming kids literally hurt my ears.

I'd be very willing to patronize child free restaurants.

I am loving SGI's No Tot Tuesdays. Some smart restaurantuer should jump on that one. No children under five allowed on that day.

My two year old comes with me to restaurants that I feel are appropriate for him and he has better table manners than half the adults. The presence of a child should be embraced, not attacked. If they are screaming and misbehaving then you could argue that they shouldn't really being going out in public at all. Then, I suppose it is a problem, but when I'm sitting with my toddler and we are both enjoying a meal together, I'd be happy for you to go somewhere else if it bothers you. It's just food.

Maybe its because I'm in a tourist haven, but screaming in restaurants and running rampant through stores (while the parents are seemingly oblivious to it) is something lots of kids do down here.

I deal with it by staying away from the more touristy restaurants and Walmart.

To my namesake, I would argue that your correct: if they are screaming and misbehaving then you could argue that they shouldn't really being going out in public at all.

Query: do you have any concern for anyone but yourself?

My two year old comes with me to restaurants that I feel are appropriate for him and he has better table manners than half the adults

Robert - I think the point being made is that your well-behaved child would certainly be welcome and, at least in my case, you parenting would be admired. What we object to are the kids running amuck.

Way back when we had this discussion on this blog, we had many examples of children who were able to behave appropriately in more adult-oriented restaurants. In the view of most here, they are welcome. It's just that the proportion of well behaved children to badly behaved children has become smaller and smaller over the past decade or so.

"It's just food"

Robert - I beg to differ, dining out isn't just food. You go to Denny's or McDonald or stay home and cook for just food. Dining out is enjoying the company of others, sharing romantic moments with a loved one, just relaxing after a hard days work or maybe a business dinner. None of these things are can be accomplished with noisy, disrespectful or whiney children. I could keep going but I think you get my drift.

P.S. Congrats on your well-behaved two year old. That must be a pleasant sight to see and hear.