I like that, too, on special occasions. It's one way to feel like a grown up. I loved it as a child when, maybe 2 times a year, the family went to a nice restaurant and wore our Sunday clothes.

I think, thought that dress codes have become blurred, especially when so many use the term business casual. This certainly means different things to different people and, I expect, different things to different restaurants.

No man should be in shorts indoors unless the place is a tourist haven. And no hats indoors either. When did that belief die?

I would not go to Charleston or Sotto Sopra without a jacket. However, I once asked if I was properly dressed to eat at Anson in Charleston, SC. I was told that they had relaxed their expectations, because they have people coming from the golf course and tourist walk-ins. Shorts were not a problem. When we were kids we were expected to dress to go to church, restaurants, BSO, etc. Things are less formal now. Two years ago we were eating at Charleston in Baltimore. I went to the WC and a well behaved kid, his family was seated near us, asked me if I was the guy who served the wine. I was dressed like the wine steward (LOL) and not all men in Charleston had a jacket on.

Dressing up and going somewhere nice is great, but a couple of years ago I worked very hard to lose 60 lbs. I got down to trim, then quit smoking and gained 15 back. Right now I'm unwilling to spend money on anything but blue jeans (which I can get away with at work) until I get to point where I can buy nice clothes and be semi-confident that they will fit for a while.

But until that time I'm avoiding places where I'd have to dress up. It's cheap ethnic dives for me for a while.

I'm not saying that I'm "that guy" in shorts in a baseball cap, but I'll play devil's advocate...

Why must I be dressed up when I simply wish to enjoy a great meal?

Of course, the restaurant, privately owned as it likely is, is free to implement their own rules. For example: No tank tops? That's the rule; I cannot come in with a tank top and that's final. But if any such rules are not stated, how does the situation differ from, say, McDonalds, who also doesn't post rules beyond "no shirt, no shoes, no service?" (Except, of course, for the drastic difference in quality of food and price.)

I have to agree with the comments I've read so far. I think it's perfectly fine that a restaurant has a dress code, i.e. jackets and/or ties for men. After all, there are plenty of lesser establishments that insist "no shirt, no shoes, no service." I recall a time I went to an upscale restaurant and wasn't wearing the required suit coat; they gave me one not nearly my size and told me I could just drape it over my chair as proof I had one.

"No man should be in shorts indoors unless the place is a tourist haven. And no hats indoors either."

I second that. It's a result of bad parenting.

Why don't restaurants put their foot down? One reason might be the bar tab these young men rack up.

I don't think so-called dressing up is required in fine restaurants, but looking put together and clean is. There's a way to be casual and relaxed while looking polished enough to show respect for the setting and for fellow diners.

Heh, heh... I am in New Orleans as I type this and I wrestled with this all week. I suppose I am 'old fashioned' (despite my youth.) Before heading out to my chosen mealtime destination, I would find out what the dress code was for the restaurant and dress accordingly. Since I told my husband that I wasn't going to torture him this trip (and require that he dress in a shirt and tie for any of our meals) I felt this was a prudent move on my part. Nevertheless, we only found one restaurant where we would have been 'excluded'.

Now, perhaps this is because NOLA is such a tourist city, and they need the tourists to return, thus the lax in proper restaurant attire for even most high end restaurants (John Besh's August, for example.) And Baltimore certainly falls into this category at times as well (Although Cindy Wolf's Charleston apparently can afford to be picky, and rightly so.)

So I am sure it is all about complacency for sake of gaining more dining dollars from tourists and just everyday diners who just see going out to eat as just another meal that requires no pomp and circumstance. However, My husband and I are of the type that unless you are eating at a neighborhood dive, bar, mid-class chain or fastfood establishment, shorts are out. Hats are never appropriate indoors for men.

For me, if I am going out to dinner where the prices/atmosphere dictate that certain level of refinement from the dress of their clientèle, I happen to enjoy dressing up. But that feeling is lost when you are dressed to match the restaurant yet the party at the table next to you looks like they just stepped off of the boardwalk in Ocean City.

Ron,

You dress to the code of an establishment out of respect for that establishment. But more importantly, out of respect for the other diners, who have gone to the trouble to wear their very best for their special occasion. Trust me, “that guy” who fights tooth and nail against a dress code and keeps taking his jacket off every time the maitre di walks away infuriates the diners at the surrounding tables. AND THEY DO COMPLAIN.

Maggi said, "But that feeling is lost when you are dressed to match the restaurant yet the party at the table next to you looks like they just stepped off of the boardwalk in Ocean City."

And it's not just restaurants. The range for clothing styles is juat as vast when going to the BSO or the Opera.

All I can say it that, when I was a child and my Grandmother took me uptown to have lunch at the Read's Drug Store and we wore white gloves and hats. Again, for me, it still has that feeling of being a grown up.

Simple solution:

If one doesn't like the way people dress, they shouldn't go to that restaurant. If one doesn't like the dress code, you obviously don't go just the same.

I'm not sure how I was mis-read about "fighting tooth and nail" about anything. Especially since I said that the rules trump any of our personal beliefs about dress code. (indbidness, please carefully re-read what I posted about restaurants that post rules for dress code).

Frankly, I'd rather NOT go to those "classy" restaurants b/c I can put together an equally tasty filet mignon at home, and at a fraction of the price.

And it's not just restaurants. There is a spirited debate going on right now by members of Cruise Critic about the inevitability on some of the more traditional lines of allowing cruise ship passengers to wear shorts, t-shirts and hats in the dining room at dinner time. They are already allowed by some of the more informal ships and at breakfast and lunch on all. Like many restaurants, the cruise companies have not enforced their own dress rules and, thus, acceptable dress has started down the "slippery slope" from semi-formal to beachwear.

We now live in Palm Beach County FL where anything goes. It took me a long time to accept that a polo shirt [or worse] was acceptable in a $100 per plate establishement or for the symphony. We were guests at an expensive Italian restaurant recently and I was the only man in a coat and tie; even our host was tie-less although he did have a jacket. It's a new world.

Rosebud, et al,

I think this is also another of those 'generational' things. If you have grown up wearing jeans and tee shirts, your job allows this, and the places you frequent with your friends are that way, being asked to dress up can be puzzling.

Those of us who are (like me) a lot older grew up with different ideas about dressing up, so it isn't that strange when asked to do so.

And, one time, when my DW and I attended a performance at the Vienna State Opera House, we saw everything from formal wear to bib overalls (!).

I know I'm getting old(er) BUT I think it comes down to personal pride in your appearance. I know I was very astounded the first time I went to Ruth's Chris in Annapolis and there were folks in there who looked like they were eating downy ocean HON! Really, if you can afford $100 + for dinner, you can afford to dress appropriately!

Ron, we're not arguing. You were not mis-read. Nor did I imply you were one of those "that guy" guys.

But I agree with your last sentence: "Frankly, I'd rather NOT go..." etc.

That's the whole point of a fine dining restaurant. It isn't just about the grub. If it was only about the grub, shorts and hats would be acceptable. If I want a great tasting meal, I cook one. If I want a dining experience, I put on a jacket and leave the jeans at home.

I have a theory on adult males in baseball caps all the time (actually, its multiple choice): a) they like to think they are still 12; b) it helps them remember which body part they sit on and which is their head.

Further evidence of how things have gotten "dumb downed." Frankly, I am amazed when anyone ever bothers to dress nicely. If people feel compelled to wear jeans to Church or if companies have to re-write HR Policies to specify what can and can't be worn, than it is hardly surprising that so few restaurants would have a dress code.

I wish I could stay away from restaurants that are more "casual" but what would be left? My wife and I went to Charlie Trotter's in Chicago for our anniversary, and the dress code said "jacket required." Naturally, there were people wearing a jacket and jeans. If a place like that allows people to wear jeans, it is a safe that restaurants around here will do the same. Restaurants are (justifiably) too concerned with their bottom line to worry about a dress code.

I just accept this as a sad commentary on contemporary life, and expect to be seated next to a couple wearing matching track suits (the worst offenders are the steakhouses - it looks like an Alantic City bus trip instead of a dining experience) At least it gives my wife and I a good laugh.

I'm not a dress-up sort of guy, but I think it comes down to a combination of taking some sense of pride in your appearance, and matching your clothing to the place you're going. However, I've found that no matter where I go, no matter what I wear, there's invariably someone who makes me feel as though I've overdressed.

There are SO many casual dining places for folks to wear their jeans/T-shirt/ball cap "uniforms." It's pretty simple--if you're going somewhere that has a dress code, follow it. I enjoy seeing well-dressed patrons at a "destination" restaurant...adds to the whole pleasurable experience. Yup, I'm a "fuddy duddy," and proud of it. I think it's WAY past time for somebody to create a whole new casual "uniform."

I'm seldom afraid of over-dressing, Claude. Better over than under any day.

Although I'm of the generation that wore tie and jacket to go to a downtown movie house, I am more interested in "good" restaurants' devising a decibel code than enforcing a dress code. I have had several meals at upscale restaurants spoiled by loud-mouthed adults at a neighboring table than I'm offended by the underdressed.

Being an insensitive lout, I adhere to a code that adjusts rather well to the prevailing raiment frequency.
1. Do not wear your tux to my biker party. I will not wear leathers and my shrunken human skull necklace to your tea party. Oui?
2. Actually, do wear your tux to my biker party. It'll be great fun.
3. Learn to tell the difference between being self-absorbed and being a black hole that sucks everyone into you and you will never be inexcusably over- or underdressed.

Last summer I was out in Mount Vernon sporting my hot pink Lacoste polo shirt, plaid shorts and a New York Yankees cap. Stylin', right?

Suddenly hunger hits me -- BAM!

So I stroll on up to the Prime Rib and try and get a table.

The host (some square) is like "Sorry Monsieur, but jackets are required."

I was like, "Dude, I'm just tryin to get some Prime Rib. Ya know?"

He wasn't having it. Wouldn't even let me chill at the bar. How ridiculous is that?

Totally lame.

As far as I know it's the 21st century and well beyond the time when people dressed up anytime they left the house. If you still prefer to do so, fine, but you have absolutely no right to complain about the appearance of others. Isn't this the land of the free?? If you want attire to be regulated then move to Afghanistan and buy a burqa.

Let's be perfectly clear about two things:

1. This is not a simply a generational thing; I'm not yet 30. I suspect it's more of a maturity thing. Or perhaps I simply wish I were British.

2. While this may in fact still be "the land of the free" that also means I have the right, nay the responsibility (insert rising inflection and crescendo here), to complain about the appearance of others. Legislate no, but complain yes. I seem to remember something about freedom of speech.

Sam, please tell me your collar was popped.

Back on task, I'm torn on the subject. On one hand, I do find dress codes to be stuffy and just a smidge overbearing. On the other, I agree with their intent. In nice restaurants, people should dress nicely. Period. Just like Mr. Old Fart, I was taught to dress in a way that is appropriate for the occasion, although I am a member of the younger generation. It's a ridiculous fantasy but I do wish that people would have some manners of their own accord, not because a rule or law told them to.

Oh Sam Sessa you are a sexy fashion machine! Whoooosh........

Personally, I love to dress up, and since I work from home, I rarely get the chance. So when I have an opportunity to go to a fancier restaurant, I'm all over it.

That said, I think this is one way that dining out in Annapolis and Baltimore are very different. Maybe it's because I grew up near there, but for me, part of Annapolis' charm is that it's a sailing town - people can get off their boats and go to dinner (back in the 80's, one of my parents' favorite wedding anniversaries was spent at Treaty of Paris next to a table of guys who had just rolled in on a sailboat, and looked like it).

So it doesn't bother me to see people dressed down at the Annapolis Ruth's Chris, though it would drive me crazy to see the same outfits in Baltimore.

As an attorney, I have to wear suits every day of the work week. When the weekend comes around, I REALLY REALLY DON'T want to dress up.

I want the food that comes along with fine dining places, but I don't go, because by the time the weekend comes around, I'm sick of being dressed up and just want to wear jeans and comfortable shoes for once, before it's back to suits and high heels on Monday.

I'm not advocating that folks look like slobs at fine dining places, but I'd be out there spending a lot more money at those places if I didn't have to dress up. I'm waiting for a place to open where you can get the fancy food but can still wear jeans. They would get a lot of my money.

Of course, that said, I can't say that I wouldn't be a little put off if I went out for a very special occasion and other diners were in plaid shorts. I think we need fine dining dress code places for that kind of stuff. And then also fine dining but you can dress casual places, so the rest of us can still eat well when we're sick of being dressed up all the time.

Matt, you just made me laugh with "perhaps I simply wish I were British". I'm young, too, and I'm totally with you on the hats inside thing, though shorts on men don't bother me as much as they do some others. It must be the "growing up eating in Annapolis" thing.

Though I guess you could make the argument that Annapolis is a "tourist haven"...

I'll be up front and say I am 38 (in 2 weeks). I was raised that you dressed to the appropriateness of the restaurant. If having a burger at the local pub then jeans are just fine. Men should remove hats when indoors. Wear nice clean shoes, not sneakers unless they are the best you have and they are clean. Wear your clothes cleanly and pressed. This goes for life, not just restaurants. I also believe in dressing up for a special occasion and hope that my companions do the same.

I would be curious of those who hate dress codes, how much is just wanting to be comfortable and how much is about not conforming to the rules of others?

I've always liked dress codes, but then again I went to a college where everyone wore jacket and ties to football games.

Or perhaps I simply wish I were British.

Very good, Matt!

Back in the day, we sort of lived by, "Truly good manners are invisible: they ease the way for others, without drawing attention to themselves." Wearing a jacket isn't asking a lot. Sometimes you can pick the hill you want to die on, but I don't think this would be one for me. Sam, because I'm the poster child for fashion faux pas, ask for some help with the wardrobe. I've also gotten THE LOOK going into Tusk's, because I had on jeans and a golf shirt.

My life motto is "No shirt, no shoes, no problem" (thank you KC). I do not like to dress up. I live in flip flops and only switch to sandals for work. If I had my way, I'd wear jeans and a tank top every day and a bikini all summer long.

That being said, when I go to nicer places, I still wear jeans, but dark ones, with high heels, and a dressy shirt. I've never gotten a negative look. Perhaps it's because I'm confident and know I look good.

(I do own one pair of black pants which are reserved for funerals)

From your name, C Hughes, your gender is not revealed. It wasn't until the bikini comment that I began to wonder if my first impression was mistaken. Then I thought, no I have heard small bathing costumes for males describe (inexactly) as bikinis. So, I am left with a mind picture that could still go either way.

C Hughes also mentioned wearing high heels, so unless this person inspired a song from the Kinks, I'd say the gender of C Hughes is known.

RoCK, can you really be sure in this world, Kinks, or no. (Think Sir Elton John.)

I enjoy the formality, but Jacket Required is stuffy and dated.

I'm always struck by the notion that wearing a tie and jacket makes a gentleman well dressed. Years ago, my then current fiance and I went to a VERY fancy restaurant for brunch. I was wearing a pair of gray flannel slacks and a blue Brooks Brothers oxford shirt. Reaching the entrance, the maitre d' stopped us saying that men needed to wear a tie in the dining room. I suggested to my fiance that we leave, but the maitre d' insisted that he would give me a tie to wear. I had some reservations, but my fiance had been in a lousy mood all morning and I wanted to avoid any more contention, so, since she wanted to stay, I agreed. Minutes later he brought out a wrinkled, 2" wide lavender tie with dark purple, horizontal stripes. Grudgingly I put it on.

We were seated and within a minute or so the waiter approached our table saying that gentlemen needed to wear a jacket in the dining room. "Let's go, " I said to my fiance, but the waiter said that the maitre d' could provide me with a jacket as well. My fiance insisted, and I reluctantly acquiesed. The maitre d' said of course he would get a jacket for me. He brought me one of HIS tuxedo jackets, size 36 or 38 short. I wear a 48 or 50 regular.

Because of my wish to not further upset my fiance, I am now clothed in my nice slacks, a nice shirt, a very thin lavender tie with purple stripes and what appears to be my kid brothers tuxedo jacket that, if I were to bring my arms together, would split up the back.

I asked the maitre d' if he thought I really looked better now than when we started. He could only mumble something about policy.

This was over 25 years ago and dress codes still seem as stupid to me today as they did then. Certainly I don't want to be surrounded by dirty, or smelly people who, for example, just came from playing football, but beyond a degree of hygeine, I really don't care what anyone is wearing -- as long as it's not an ill fitting tuxedo jacket.

Apparently I'm not yet quite finished ranting. Am I the only one to whom it has occurred that there is something patently ridiculous about the belief that taking a brightly colored piece of cloth and tying it tightly around your neck, makes one better dressed? Who says?

What about the dreaded sport jacket. It's the middle of summer in Baltimore and 101 degrees. What could make less intuitive sense than to tie this cloth around your neck, button up all the buttons on your shirt, and then put on yet another piece of clothing, a jacket so that one can look appropriate...to someone else?! What nonsense.

O.K., I'm done now.

HKM--actually, I was thinking that the lavender and purple striped 2 inch tie sounded pretty cool. Even the teeny-tiny tuxedo jacket sounds sort of fun. Have you looked at the Dolce & Gabbana ads in Esquire lately? or the runway stuff that the Post shows from Milan? Hilarious tiny jackets on "men" who look to be about 16. and on heroin. what's wrong with you? no fashion sense?

I liked your second posting even better--the I'm not quite finished one. Made me laugh even more. But then I'm in a great mood because I just saw SHINE A LIGHT!

Okay, I'm done now.

Wait--not yet. Good thing you ditched the fiance.

Chez G--thanks for the support. Actually, I too am glad I ditched the fiance. Of the two, I preferred the lavender tie.

Chez G--yes yes yes to Shine a Light! Everyone should go and see it while it's at the Senator on the big screen!

HKM, I'm glad you ditched the fiance, too. Anyone who would not walk out with you when you were faced with a situation that made you uncomfortable, would not have been very much fun to live with. At least not for any length of time.

Ms. Janet: you gave up the sled because winter is over?

Is this Janet the blogger formerly known as Rosebud?

Tis I. I was usimg the other computer and it still had Janet saved as my name.

Well, it gave us all a start, Janet/Rosebud--we wondered if you were changing personalities on us!

In today's world, I think a restaurant has to be exceptional for me to wear a jacket. However, if you're going to have a dress code, then make it stick.

While waiting in the lounge for our dinner at per se in NYC, a couple of people came in seeking a meal. They were politely asked to return after changing out of their jeans.

RtSO - I guess I'll leave my baseball cap home on the 19th.

Sam Sessa - PLEASE wear that outfit on the 19th! (You are attending, yes, as personal representative of EL?)

Misha - Happy Bday early! I'll be ## on Wednesday.

Did you hear back from Koopers yet, Rob?

Rosebud - No I did not, which makes me wonder if I scared them off by telling them who we are. I will follow up with a phone call. Thanks for the reminder!

With or without a baseball cap, I don't think I want to know what 'I'll be ## on Wednesday.' entails. With a theatre person ...

LOL, RtSO. To quote "Mame" (hey, it's theatre): "Somewhere between 40 and death."

See, this is why I spent so many years in remedial reading. I read it, I typed it (well okay, I copied it to the clipboard and pasted it) and only after re-reading my comment and your answer did I finally understand what you meant. (Hanging my head in shame.)

Happy Birthday (early, so I don't forget.) And you too Veg Girl. Have some asparagus on me.

I offer that dress codes (or guidelines) are about creating an environment that in which patrons can be comfortable.

How people dress sets a certain tone for the dining room. It sets expectations (valid or otherwise) about the menu, quality of food and service, and the deportment of other diners. And at risk of vanity, it's nice to be where others 'look their best'.

For many a fancy restaurant is special occasion. If I'm taking my wife out for an anniversary dinner, I want it to be special and would like to avoid having to talk over a sports team that just ordered their second keg of beer.

I appreciate that some will look just fine in a polo shirt and trousers, whereas I need all the help I can get.

Bon appetit,

JPS

Wow, I came over to read this since it is an old post. Was literally taken back when I saw RtSO as the original last comment. Then scrolled up and saw Piano Rob.

Yeah, RtSO still hangs out with us here.

Cattle die, and kinsmen die.
Thyself eke soon wilt die;
but fair fame will fade never,
I ween, for him who wins it.

Lissa, that was lovely.

Lissa,
:)

Thanks, Lissa.

Havamal. One of my favourite verses. Pretty bad translation, but good enough.

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